The Plain Values Podcast EP #19 – From Atlanta Highways to New York Hayfields: Buck Alford’s Unlikely Journey

Marlin Miller:

How many times, Buck, do we walk past someone that we really should get to know and that there’s an opportunity there to minister and courage just to be a friend?

Buck Alford:

It’s hard to be uncomfortable and then to put ourselves intentionally, voluntarily in a position of discomfort.

Marlin Miller:

When you don’t know what’s going to happen.

Buck Alford:

We don’t know what’s going to happen. The uncertainty, the unknown certainly is scary. Crazy stuff happens. If you just show up, be present and then let God do what God does.

Marlin Miller:

Well, guys, Marlon here with Plain Values podcast. You are in for a treat today. A good friend of mine that I met a year, year and a half ago, Buck Alford just came into town to come see some clients of his. And he texted me and said, “Hey man, let’s get together and have dinner.” So we had an impromptu just last minute podcast and had a blast talking about him, his family, coming out of Atlanta, moving into the countryside, upstate New York. Buck is a great guy. Him and his family have lived in hospitality for many, many years. And just being able to talk about that, what that looks like, and some of the cool things that have come out of that was just a real treat. So guys, thanks a ton. You’re going to love it. This podcast is sponsored by my friends at Azure Standard.

A while back, I had a chance to sit down with the founder, David Stelzer, right here at the table. And we had a great conversation. I love the Azure story. They started out as farmers back in the ’70s and I think in 1987 they began a nationwide food distribution company. And guys, they are non- GMO organic. They do it right. They do it so well. And you can get a truck to drop food right in your town. Check them out at azurestandard.com and tell them Marlin and Plain Values sent you.

Buck Alford:

I know you shared with me a little bit on what your vision for this is, but speak to that for me a little bit.

Marlin Miller:

I don’t- Yeah, totally. The Plain Values podcast, I think, in a sense, is just simply the next phase of sharing life and telling story and just talking with people about life and about the good and the hard. And that’s what I think he’s kind of in a funky way, kind of gifted me with. As you know, we met simply because of me asking a dumb question.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. West beating in line together, right? I mean, that was essentially it.

Marlin Miller:

It was great. It was great. That was a year and a half ago, something like that. Was it last summer? I don’t exactly remember. Spring. It was colder out. Yes, it was. Maybe it was last spring, a year ago. I almost think it was, but it was in New York, not far from where you live. A couple hours. And it was at a Bruderhof, right?

Buck Alford:

It was. That’s exactly right.

Marlin Miller:

At the Walden community. That

Buck Alford:

Was it.

Marlin Miller:

And who was there? It was- Joel Salatin. Joel was there.

Buck Alford:

Which was why we went, because we can get into that, obviously. He was very instrumental in us kind of deciding to do things differently. And we had not seen him in person before. So it was Joel, Rebanks, James Rebanks. James and his wife. And his wife, that’s right. Yeah. That’s right. And a really great day and meal and some music. I mean, there was a lot of great things going on that day. It was a fun time.

Marlin Miller:

One of the things that I remember the most, other than meeting you and being able to hang out with my buddy Eric and just meeting those folks, number one, that group right there, Peter Momson, and a few of his guys there actually published a magazine called Plow. I think I have a few over there somewhere, but it is one of the best, most beautiful, most thoughtful magazines that I subscribed. And I subscribe to a handful. And I love the chance to get to know them and get to talk to them. But the coolest thing, I come from an Amish background. These are Anna Baptist. Buck, they brew beer there.

Buck Alford:

I remember it. We may have stood in line together having one.

Marlin Miller:

I think so, actually. But it was really a fascinating time. And James, is his wife’s name Helen? That sounds right. I think it is.

Buck Alford:

I think it is.

Marlin Miller:

Their books are beautifully done. They’re just such great writers. And their story of their farm is very Joel and Sean and Beth Doherty-ish. Oh, it is. It is. Very much that

Buck Alford:

Way. Yeah. I was only marginally familiar with them before that event and have started following them and in fact have a James book that I haven’t dug into yet because it’s in that stack that convicts me every time I look at it, that growing stack of things that I’m going to read.

Marlin Miller:

I don’t have that problem at all.

Buck Alford:

No, I’m kidding. But I feel smarter

Marlin Miller:

Just having them present in my space. That’s why you buy them. That’s why I buy them. Is to impress other people. I mean, that’s what you and I are really all about.

Buck Alford:

But you know what’s really cool? Even those that I don’t get around to reading, I’ve had that occasion where I’ve got somebody over at the house and this conversation starts up and said, “You know what? I’ve got a book for you. ” And lend it to that friend and it becomes impactful that way. Education by

Marlin Miller:

Osmosis or something. Maybe I learn some from it that way. I mean, speaking to that, as far as people have walked in here and said, “Marlon, have you read all these books?” And I always laugh and I say, “Oh my goodness, not even

Close.” Well, then why do you buy them? And my question usually is something to the effect of, because number one, if I’m just being really real, years ago, do you remember when it came out that Amazon was … They were going to start deleting books. Right. Yep. I do remember that. Yep. I told my wife, I said- I’m buying up. Yeah. I don’t golf, I don’t hunt much anymore. I fish a little bit. I don’t have a whole lot of hobbies other than the family and the farm and stuff like that. That’s where I love to just actually collect things.

Buck Alford:

And it shows around here.

Marlin Miller:

What

Buck Alford:

A great space this is.

Marlin Miller:

Thanks. It is. It is a real blessing. But to be able to have that book for down the road, just like you said, you never know when those things are going to come into a great conversation, a new friendship, things like that. So let’s go back to Walden. You and I meet- We do.

Buck Alford:

Do you remember specifically where? I mean, we were in line for the buffet, you in front of me, you behind me, you just struck up a conversation. That’s right. Yeah.

Marlin Miller:

I remember your hat. Did I start it with your hat? I’m not sure. I think you did. You know what, that sounds right. I almost think I did. I’m not sure. Anyway, so we started talking. We did. And my buddy Eric, who came over from Jersey or Delaware actually, and his wife were there as well to see Joel and the rebanks. And I got Eric. I think I got Eric and I said, “Hey, I want you to meet my new friend. He’s a banker too.” And then you guys- I forgot about that. Yeah.

Buck Alford:

Do you remember that?

Marlin Miller:

That’s exactly right. Yeah. Eric works in the financial services banking space, which is what you do. You can circle back with him again. He’s a good dude. You’d like Eric a lot. So anyway. I could tell. So tell me a little bit of what you actually do.

Buck Alford:

What I actually do. Boy, that is a mouthful there. So are we talking job? Well, let’s talk about … What I do is I’m a husband and a dad to five and dabble around the farm a little bit, which is a story in and of itself, but then work in the banking space, financial services space as a primary income earner

Marlin Miller:

Anyway. Right. So jump into the story on the farm. You came out of Atlanta, right?That’s right.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. It’s funny. This conversation probably goes back, or this thought probably goes back 10, 12, 14 years. We were living in Atlanta, Metro Atlanta. I grew up in the city, in and around the city, born in downtown Atlanta and never lived until I moved to upstate New York almost six years ago. Never lived more than about 20 miles from downtown Atlanta. So suburban Atlanta. Saw it grow from a million and a half or whatever it was when I was a kid to seven million or some crazy number, living in a very suburban, stereotypical suburban Atlanta neighborhood.

And I wish I could remember who it was. It wasn’t Joel, but it was someone who writes cookbooks and it’ll come to me later. But we had a friend at church that recommended a cookbook to Melissa. Melissa is my wife, fantastic in the kitchen. I have not met anyone who’s more talented in the kitchen. She’s just fantastic. And she was motivated by this cookbook that was basically just sort of a … It was a story about returning to the land essentially around this cookbook. And so she started being much more thoughtful in ingredients that she was cooking with folks we were buying from. That turned into really a love for and a desire for hospitality, which we can get into in more detail. I know we’ve talked a lot about that, you and I.

And so we just began to think about what would it look like or what does it look like to be hospitable and present in the place where we are and then began to talk about opportunities to expand outside of Atlanta or maybe relocate outside of Atlanta. And as Fortune would have it, my father-in-law is a six generation farmer upstate New York, had been talking about selling the farm and coming south to be closer to children and grandchildren. And we said, “Hey, pump the brakes on that thing. We might be interested in relocating from south to north instead.” And so I would say late 18, early 19, it just really began to really convict Melissa and I. And we said, “You know what? Let’s look at this as an adventure. Let’s go and do a complete change of lifestyle.” And we can go into some of those details on what really was motivating that, but a complete change of lifestyle, sell, move to upstate New York and see what happens.

I think I’ve shared this with you before. When we began to talk about it and finally made the decision to do it, we said, “Okay, this is great. We know where we’re going, that’s it. ” But beyond that, everything’s in place except for a job for me, a place to live, a place to worship, and a place to send our kids.

Apart from those unimportant things, everything else is in place.

Marlin Miller:

Other than that. Other than that,

Buck Alford:

Everything’s in place. Yeah. So those things began to fall in line. My father-in-law’s mother left a home on the farm and basically left a home vacant that had been on the property for 40 some odd years. And we had an opportunity to go up and renovate that home. School kind of fell into place, was able to take my job at the time, which I wasn’t sure I was going to be able to do.

Marlin Miller:

So

Were you working for your current employer then?

Buck Alford:

No.

Marlin Miller:

So that had to fall into

Buck Alford:

Line? So I was working with a nonprofit in the education space at the time. So I was raising corporate funds for a nonprofit that scholarships, low income kids to attend private, mostly Christian schools throughout Georgia and Louisiana. And I was able to take that job with me to upstate New York and continue doing that fundraising. I did. Yeah. So the first two or three years.

Marlin Miller:

So, okay. Okay. Yeah, I think I misunderstood that. And this is all … I mean, timing on this is uncanny. It’s a year or so before COVID.

Buck Alford:

Yeah, for sure. I mean- You talk about making a decision to socially distance ourselves and really embrace a different lifestyle of what was probably, what, eight months, nine months ahead of March 20?

Marlin Miller:

This is a really dumb question, but- We’re good at those. But I’m sure … Yes, we are. I am sure you and your wife have talked. What would it have been like to be in the middle of suburban Atlanta to walk through those couple years?

Buck Alford:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, certainly a consideration. And so many times we’ve come to this place in the last six years, we were just so grateful for where we are. And listen, as a Southern boy through and through, to go from Atlanta, Georgia to upstate rural New York is life changing. I

Marlin Miller:

Mean, you’re talking, that’s full out Yankee terror.

Buck Alford:

Oh,

Marlin Miller:

It totally

Buck Alford:

Is, right? Yeah. I mean, listen, I grew up in a place where anything north of about 285 on the north end of Atlanta was considered Yankee. So to go to Central New York was definitely culture shock in a lot of ways. Listen, it was made easier by the fact that obviously we had family and we had been vacationing in upstate New York, Finger Lakes area for 15 years prior to moving. So we even had a friend base there. I think it would’ve been a lot more difficult without that. But yeah, no, we were very grateful when March of 2020 rolled around that we were where we were doing the things that we’re doing.

Marlin Miller:

So you move on to your father-in-law’s farm.

Buck Alford:

So move on to my father-in-law’s farm. And I don’t know how much of this you want to get into, but we get into it. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So we began to rethink food and how we go about preparing and eating food, which then inevitably leads to conversations about participating in the food cycle in some capacity, whether that’s growing, producing, working more closely with growers or producers or what have you. And so really just we’re convicted at getting closer, taking some steps to get closer to our food. I mean, the guys that we were reading were Joel Salatin and Wendell Berry, obviously, I mean, it seems all so cliche to say, but all the guys that everybody reads that goes down this path, that’s who we were reading. We were reading Joel and Wendell Berry. And if you’re familiar with Norman Wiersba, who is a professor of theology, ethics, and ecology at Duke, and he came from a farming background, he’s a Canadian, came from a farming background and was pursuing a career in academia as a theologian and really just felt a draw a tug primarily through meeting Wendell Berry into some really impressive and thoughtful study on agrarian lifestyle and care of creation from a Christian point of view.

So we’re reading all of these guys and they are shining a light on things that we knew from the outset, which was We are disconnected and distanced from the food source. I don’t even have an understanding apart from a consumeristic kind of mindset, the connection to a food source. So we just began to say, what would it look like to get closer to the food source and to raise animals, grow crops responsibly, sustainably, and to involve our kids in that.

Marlin Miller:

Well, I was

Buck Alford:

Just thinking, how old were your kids? No, it’s good. Yeah, good question. So five kids. Yeah. When we made the move in 2019, our oldest was 19 and in college, so we had four still at home that were 17, 10, oh, eight, or seven and three.

Marlin Miller:

Okay.

Buck Alford:

So you had little kids yet?

Marlin Miller:

Yeah,

Buck Alford:

Exactly. So our youngest is nine now.

Marlin Miller:

Wow. I know. So how much of a transition was that for your older kids? I mean, they’re in the prime of their high school years and all that. And I’m thinking about you as a dad talking them through the idea of moving across half of the country.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. No, that’s a good question. Yeah. It was so funny when what we found at every step of the decision process of consideration was just willingness and openness, whether it was from our kids or even in talking with other family members. So I remember specifically Melissa and I having a conversation that said, I think Adia would have been maybe a junior in high school or was a sophomore. So she only has two years of school left and we had some very serious concerns about uprooting her, to your point, for those last two years. And so we really took it to her, not as a, “Hey, we need your permission here, but boy, we want you to be on board with this.

Marlin Miller:

“

Buck Alford:

And basically said, “What are your thoughts?” And she just took a very adventurous attitude with it and said, “Let’s go for it. ” There’s nothing … I love my friends here. I love the place, but there’s nothing that’s binding me to this place. And place continually came up in the conversation, rootedness and a place, and we just didn’t feel rooted or in the place where we were to some degree. So anyway, she looked at it very much our oldest as an adventure, said, “Let’s do it. ” And the others were younger and we’re all on board with, “Hey, let’s give it a shot if we don’t like it. ” And that was the other thing. We pitched it as, “Let’s go and do this. Let’s look at this as an adventure.” And you know what, Lord willing, it works out. But if six months from now or a year from now or five years from now, we say, “This is not where we’re to be, then we’ll go back to Georgia or go somewhere else that the Lord leads us.” But there it was, this is an adventure.

Let’s go do it.

Marlin Miller:

I mean, to me, the first thing that comes to mind, excuse me, was you and your wife did something well, did something really right. I wonder sometimes. It seems, but it seems like that though, because if your children are … I mean, obviously they’re pretty stable, pretty solid emotionally and socially and all of that, but for them to look at that, because I mean, I’m guessing you were talking about this all along, had you been talking and thinking out loud with them and kind of dreaming with them about the food conversation and about the Wendell Berry type stuff?

Buck Alford:

Yeah. If the kids weren’t involved in those conversations directly, they were certainly hearing the conversations taking place. So it was not foreign to them. We were having those conversations and still we were taking actions even where we were. You were. Yeah. So for instance-

Marlin Miller:

They saw it happening.

Buck Alford:

Right. They saw things … I mean, for instance, Melissa ripped out all of our ornamental bushes, hedges in the front of our house and around the beds surrounding our house and turned all in our suburban Atlanta HOA governed- Get out. … a dictatorial neighborhood, and she ripped all that stuff out and planted edible landscape. So we had something … I just heard her tell this the other day, something like 20, 24 different herbs that we were eating off of planted around our house as both edible and obviously as very beautiful landscape, planted strawberry plants and we had these huge blueberry bushes in the front of our house that then just became shaped and became our hedges. So we’re eating off our little suburban pie shaped yard right there. And then also taking steps, and this was again, just a huge testament to Melissa. Both of us really enjoy entertaining.

I mean, I think you and I have found this connection here, and hospitality is certainly a gift. And she is the organized … I am not the organized one. I’m the let’s sit around and talk and create some plans, and then let’s hand it to somebody who gets it done. And Melissa is a get it done kind of person. And so even where we were, we had started being very intentional about things like dinner parties. And what started as I think four couples that we were very close friends with in a church turned into, “Hey, let’s be more thoughtful and outward looking here and get outside of our comfort zone and not only our comfort zone, but let’s be very intentional about inviting people together.” And we would have, let’s say, 10 couples for a dinner, inviting people together that wouldn’t ordinarily be together. “Hey, we know this group from church would never think to associate with this group or this neighborhood person would never think to associate with these church folks.

Let’s invite this couple and this couple and be very thoughtful to the eight or 10 couples we would bring together and then what we would do, Melissa would make this fantastic meal. I mean, we really would feast, right? I mean, it’s no secret. There’s so much of scripture and we’ve talked about this, the work of Jesus taking place over a meal and he himself presenting us as a meal, the bread of life, right? So it’s no surprise that something magical happens over a good meal and a good drink and just that festive attitude

And festive spirit. And so we would put eight, 10 couples in a room together and then just sort of stand back and say,” Well, what’s going to happen? What’s God going to do? “And he did.

Marlin Miller:

You and your wife would stand back.

Buck Alford:

We would participate, but there would be a, let’s not be so forceful on, boy, let’s make sure that Marlon meets Seth. No, it’s, hey, let’s just pull people together and then create a space that is safe and welcoming and hospitable and festive and then just see what happens. And it didn’t happen always, but the couple of times that it happened, it was really magical to me where I would get the call weeks or months later from somebody at a previous dinner party that said,” Hey Buck, you remember when I met Steve at your dinner party? I just had a thought that I bet he would be interested in. Can I get a number for him? “And it would be like, ” Oh, crazy stuff happens. If you just show up, be present and then let God do what God does. “Yeah.

Marlin Miller:

Did you guys aim to do these at a certain cadence? I mean, did you say,” Hey, let’s aim for one a month and let’s invite different people, “which I think you did. Was there a cadence to it or

Buck Alford:

Was it as you could get to it? I would say we’d like to do them monthly. It was generally not that frequent, but certainly once a quarter, once every two months was certainly a regular schedule, regular cadence.

Marlin Miller:

I want to say this gently, why do you think a lot of churches and a lot of the families in those churches struggle to reach outside those comfort zones, little circles? Well, these are the people that we hang out with. These are the folks that we know and we’re not really going to go outside that.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. No, that’s a great question. There are probably folks a lot smarter than me that have written volumes on that shelf that would kind of talk about some of these issues. I mean, the very fact that you call it a comfort zone, I think speaks to it, right? It’s hard to be uncomfortable and then to put ourselves intentionally, voluntarily in a position of discomfort.

Marlin Miller:

When you don’t know what’s going to happen.

Buck Alford:

We don’t know what’s going to happen. The uncertainty, the unknown certainly is scary. Wow. As someone, and here’s where I love how we’ve connected here, because I think you and I can sit down and we’ve proven it. I can sit down and talk about anything or nothing, what feels like for

Marlin Miller:

Hours. For hours. Yeah.

Buck Alford:

And really I feel nourished by it. I do. I don’t know about you, but I certainly-

Marlin Miller:

I mean, I’m faking it all along, really. I get the sense that you don’t fake much. I don’t. Ask Seth, I’m a little too real at times.

Buck Alford:

So I think for me, it’s easy. It was easy to invite people in to just, “Hey, let’s enjoy a good meal together and a good drink and a good conversation.”

And again, but that’s just the way I’m wired in the same way that you’re wired that way. I think to invite someone not only to a meal, but a meal in your home and then invite some intimacy and some transparency and some authenticity, and particularly from folks that you don’t already know is just a, “Why would I go spend Friday night at a dinner party with eight other couples that I don’t generally want to hang out with? ” And I guess maybe that attitude or that fear, that concern is probably as prevalent in the church as it is out, right? It’s the human-

Marlin Miller:

What do you

Buck Alford:

Think? Do you have

Marlin Miller:

Thoughts otherwise? Well, no, I agree. I agree. I long for the chance to meet other folks like you that take hospitality seriously and that aren’t afraid to say … I mean, the Lord calls us to this and I think part of what makes Christianity so magnetic is when you run into someone that is living a fearless life, and obviously they’re not fearless in every sense at all the time, but with people, with people, how many times, Buck, do we walk past someone that we really should get to know and that there’s an opportunity there to minister and courage, just to be a friend. We’ve talked about this before. We are so connected. We are more connected than ever in history, and yet we’re all dying of loneliness on the inside. We’re all lonely together. In high school, I graduated high school in 1995. Just a kid.

I know. I know. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. But I remember having a group of friends that were really into being an individual and they were all, “Hey, let’s all be a rebel together.” And I just found that whole dichotomy of let’s be an individual as a group,

Just hilarious. I thought that was pretty funny.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. No, that is funny.

Marlin Miller:

So let’s go back to the farm. So you moved the family up there in 19.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. So we move in 19 and not really knowing what we were going to do when we got there. I mean, really it’s a … Okay, here’s the next step. So I had a quick aside, I had a guy that I almost went to work for. He was a president of a relatively small Christian liberal arts college in the South

And nearly moved out of Georgia to this place in Tennessee in probably 07 to work for him. And he was one of these serial achievers and the kind, and I’ve got Another friend that I say this about, that most days if I’m having a conversation with him or about him, I want to kick him in the shin because just everything he does, he does really well and he does a lot of stuff. Well, this president of the university was that way and he said, “My secret…” And he was notorious for being a short sleeper. He was a three, four, four and a half hour a night guy and was just prolific in his output, but just had a heart of gold. And I asked him, I said, “How do you get so much done?” He goes, “Man, I get that question so much times.” And so many times, he said, “There’s nothing profound or wise about it.

I just do the very next thing and I do the very next thing to the best of my ability. And when I’m done with that, I do the very next thing.” And so for us, the next thing was we moved and now we got there and like, “Okay, well, what’s the next thing?” We didn’t really have a plan. And so the next thing was, look, we have space. So my father-in-law was a six generation. He was actually five generations on a farm in PA in Lancaster

That he had gone away to Cornell in an ag program at Cornell, basically went home to PA and told his dad, “Hey, I found the promised land. We got to relocate to flatter ground in the finger lakes.” And so they relocated the farm in 70 or 71. So he had a 200 acre farm that he had closed down dairy operation. And it was small. He had closed down the operation about 15 years earlier and then began to lease the land. Well, we began to think about what would it look like maybe to pull some of the acreage out of the lease and do some things on. And so things simply became a, “Hey, we’ve got eight acres between the two houses and the barns. Let’s use the space that we have before we start reclaiming space and just see what we like and don’t like and what resonates with us and what food we like to eat and produce and so forth.” And so we … Go ahead.

Marlin Miller:

Well, no, finish your thought.

Buck Alford:

Yeah. So we started with layers, of course. I mean, it was such an easy one there, right? Yeah. And then we’ve started with a pig or two, which turned into much more, which we can talk about.

Marlin Miller:

Which I’m enjoying.

Yeah. Well, I

Buck Alford:

Hope you are.

Marlin Miller:

It’s unbelievable. So let’s go back to the farmer that’s leasing your land. Yeah. Totally conventional, spraying, tilling.

Buck Alford:

Yes.

Marlin Miller:

How has that, and I’m assuming here, I’m taking a risk on sounding like a total idiot, have you moved more of that land into the regenerative model?

Buck Alford:

We are not much, but that is the thought is to continue to move some of that more into the model. So about 200 is being farmed conventional. I hate to say conventional, right? Because it’s unconventional. I mean, it should be

Marlin Miller:

Anyway. This episode of the Plain Values podcast is being brought to you by my friends at Kentucky Lumber. Derek and I were talking this morning and he shared a story about how they like to do business and they like to do business with people that are like them and they like to be treated in a way that they treat their own customers. He told me about a customer of theirs that he had to fire and this was not going the way that it typically does. And this guy was not being happy with anything that they did and nothing was good enough. And finally Derek said, “You know what? You’ve disrespected my team enough and I think we’re done. And so you can go find your lumber someplace else.” And the attitude and the heart behind the way that Derek sees the world is exactly the way that I see the world and I have a hunch you might as well.

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Buck Alford:

So it really is seasonal. We have not, and here, even to think through it and to start to talk through it now, I find it convicting because here we are almost six years in this summer and it feels like we’re constantly starting and stopping.

So apart from layers, we don’t have … And we had some brief run with some sheep, but apart from that, we don’t have anything on the property year round. So our pigs, for instance, we’ve done 30 pigs a year for the last couple of years and I’ll get piglets in about this time and raise them five, six months and send them off to market. So it still feels like we’re very much at that experimental stage. We’ve done a cow. Melissa would really like to have, and I agree, would like to have some beef cattle on the property, maybe take back another 10, 12, 15, 20 acres and just do some pasture beef there. And I’d like to have pigs out on pasture. We’re doing something. In fact, we’re working on a project this coming year, later this year, that will move us toward that direction on a different breed of pig that would be a little more pasture focused rather than this pen raised kind of approach model that we’ve used in the past.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Well, we’ve played with Kunikoonies. We’ve played with Idaho pasture pigs and they are, in our experience, the pasture pigs are just really, really nice. And the Kunis have such a sweet temperament. They are just … I mean, man oh man, I mean, they love it when we give them a belly rub and they fall over. It’s just a really sweet thing. And I think I have to confess, I don’t think I’ve ever imagined that I would enjoy having pigs as much as I do. I’ve really grown to enjoy our

Buck Alford:

… What do you have? You have the Kunis.

Marlin Miller:

We do. Yeah. We have- And Idaho Pastor? Well, we got … No, the one that was an IPP actually died, so she’s gone. Okay. But

Buck Alford:

Yeah,

Marlin Miller:

I think she ate almonds or something and tore her … Her guts started bleeding internally, I think.

Buck Alford:

Well, it’s interesting, and I don’t think we had talked about this, but this project, it’s actually a grazing project that a friend of mine who is an associate professor at Cornell is participating in this project. And it is a pasture grazing under solar projects that will use pigs rather than sheep or in addition to sheep.

Marlin Miller:

Right. I mean, I’ve read and I’ve heard about using solar and running sheep in there. That’s a fantastic idea.

Buck Alford:

Pigs. Pigs. But specifically a Kuney Idaho pasture cross. And I know Idaho pasture already is a Kuney cross, right? I think it- I think so. It has Kune

Marlin Miller:

Lions.

Buck Alford:

It has Kooney line in there. But yeah, so this is going to be an Idaho pasture cooney cross, I believe. And so we’re basically going to take some pigs on it through the farrowing process, get them ready to go out to pasture, then get them back on the back end after pasturing. But yeah, it’s specifically this Kooney Idaho pasture. Which I’m really excited about. Those are such cute animals. Oh,

Marlin Miller:

They are. They’re great. And their little noses are like this long. Yeah, they’re just super cute. I did realize, I think I said almonds. I think that pig got into our … She ate a- Black walnut. Yeah, she ate black walnuts. Yeah. So the holes are like rocks, just super sharp and all that. So it was a bummer. Almonds would probably not have caused any shit. Probably wouldn’t

Buck Alford:

Have been a problem.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Not at all. We’ve got the black walnuts too. Yeah. Which are great trees by the way, but yeah, obviously. So I’m going to circle back around for a second.

Buck Alford:

Yep.

Marlin Miller:

Have you and Melissa done any … I’m blanking on the name. Just all of your entertaining, have you taken that up to New York with you?

Buck Alford:

We have. And the thought was … Well, yes, the short answer is we very much have. It has taken on a little different form than it did in Atlanta, and even I would say a little different structure than we had thought it might. We had even … And it’s still a consideration, but that hosting four purchased dinner parties out at the property in one of the barns that just really is conducive to that sort of thing. And we haven’t been there yet. I think there is great safety in not cutting the ties to income earning and being all in on things. There’s great safety to that, but then there’s also great comfort and a tendency to slow roll and not be as ambitious when you’ve got a job to do, you’ve got work to do. And as you know, I spent a lot of time on the road, which is how we ended up here today, rolling a town to have this, which is great.

So we haven’t done as much as I would say we would hope to and still want to, but yes. Are

Marlin Miller:

You in a town that’s a big town? Are

Buck Alford:

You in a little town? No, no. We’re in a little rural town called Cibio Center. It’s a dot on the map

At 14, 1500 folks in Cipio. It’s about 30 minutes north of Ithaca, has a little town of about 25,000 called Auburn. That’s about 15 minutes from us. But no, we’re in this rural farm community surrounded by other little towns about the same size. So yeah, not a lot going on there. No, that area, such a huge destination place for wineries, folks visiting. I think we have a hundred, give or take, a handful within a 90 mile radius of our house. About five and a half to six million people a year come into the area on wine tours. So there’s a lot of folks that come in. There is a big tourist industry in the area, but we’re sort of tucked in a pocket where there’s not a lot of it.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

Buck Alford:

Yeah.

Marlin Miller:

That’s cool. Have you sensed … I mean, you’ve been in New York in upstate for five or six years. Right. How has New York changed as far as a state? It’s easy for me. I’ve never been to New York City. I really don’t have a huge desire to go, but the political climate and seeming wackiness that is in New York, has it reached you in upstate up there in the figure lakes?

Buck Alford:

I’m trying to remember, remind myself that this is not you and I talking, that there are other eyes on us here, and so I will choose my words carefully. Living in the state of New York, despite being very physically distanced from Albany or New York City, we’re still affected by challenges and decisions being made obviously out of Albany and New York City. But that said, it largely feels … We were talking COVID earlier, I’m not sure if it was even running yet, but being where we were, where we are then felt very different than, let’s say, even going 20 minutes, 30 minutes away into Ithaca or 15 minutes away into Auburn in that there was two or three days in March, maybe two weeks, maybe it was the whole two week to slow the spread. There were about two weeks where I think even the farms where we were surrounded … And I’d be curious to know if this was the same situation here, but there were a couple weeks where there was some, “Hey, wait and see.

Are our farm hands going to be dying in the fields and we’re all turning into zombies?”

And when that reality hit, said, “Okay, that’s not the case here.” We went about business again and we were hosting … Well, you talk about hosting, back to your last question, the state of New York put a 10 person limit. What’s the statute of limitations on something like this? I better be careful. I’m sorry. Our dear governor at the time, God bless him, there was a 10 person limit on gathering. Marlon, we had put folks lined up down the street coming to our house for bonfires and cookouts and parties. I mean, so we just kind of went about our business, which is to say, again, back to your question on how is it kind of living in New York general. I feel like in so many ways we are distanced from what we would find are some differing views on a wide range of policies in Ithaca or in Albany or New York City, but we’re still affected by them.

So even in our little community, a public school with a graduating class of 50, I mean, we see some of the more destructive, for lack of a better word, ideologies invading and infecting our little public school community right where we are, despite it being God’s country, I mean, as we would call it or as they would call it there.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. How can we pray for you and Melissa and all your kids and all that? Wow. Wow.

Buck Alford:

Man, want to get out a piece of paper, we can start making a long list here.

Marlin Miller:

Well, because of you rolling in the town,

Buck Alford:

I

Marlin Miller:

Didn’t have time to actually think and pray through what I usually like to do and typically, fuck, there’s a sheet of questions here and I’m jotting notes down. So technically the answer would typically have been, yes, I would have a paper to take some notes on, but I actually don’t today. So I’m

Buck Alford:

Sorry. No, I think for us, even six years in to a new place, it still is, there have been challenges in terms of making and finding and creating community. I have dear friends where we are, but it’s different. We were, for me, 50 years in a place. Melissa, despite being from upstate New York, had lived in Georgia for 25 years. And so to find that community, a community of believers, not only a community of believers, yes, but even the area where we can reach out and serve best in our neighboring community, giving us places to bring truth and then to faithfully walk in and live in the truth in those opportunities. And then I’ve got more immediately or more specifically even, I’ve got a grandbaby that’s coming in- Do you really? … three months, man, or two months, first of July.

Marlin Miller:

First one. First

Buck Alford:

One. Rock on. Yeah. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah. Adia and all of our kids are so special, but Adia is a student at Palm Beach Atlantic University down in West Palm Beach and she and her husband Silas are having our first- Oh, congratulations. To them and to you and are they medicine? Yeah, so super excited about that. So just walking that road faithfully and praying for good health and all those things. But yeah, and then just some diligence and clarity on how we live and serve and our faithful witnesses of Christ right where we are. I love it. Yeah.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Last question. Yeah, man. What are you reading right now? Because I know that you have a stack.

Buck Alford:

I do. Yeah. No, it’s interesting. I need to get better at reading right through a single book and then going to the next one. Yeah. Do you do the same thing? I do. Yeah. So at any given time, it feels like I am partially through four or five books. So one of the things that, a couple of things that are in my stack that I’m spending more time in right now, I pulled out a book that was really instrumental in our move. I mentioned Norman Weirsba. He wrote a book called Food and Faith: Theology of Eating, which is fantastic. I think I’ve heard of it. I highly recommend that. Okay.

So I’m working back through that a little bit, which is just really, really good stuff. Any Wendell Berry, any Salatin fan would eat this up. So that’s one. Another one that I’ve picked up for a second time and back into, and it’s a short, digestible volume called Acedia, and I’m going to get the metaphysical boredom in an Empire of Desire. I think is- That’s the subtitle. I think that’s the subtitle. So Catholic Theologian out of Notre Dame, guy named R.J. Snell wrote that. And Acedia is the word for sloth, the scent of sloth, which we think of naturally as being … When you hear sloth, what do you think?

Marlin Miller:

I think of the animal.

Buck Alford:

You think of the animal? Yeah. Which what would that translate to you as- Extremely slow. Slow, lazy.

Yeah. And I think that we typically think of a cedio or sloth. The sin of sloth is laziness. And Snell writes a book where it just really unpacks the sin of a cedio of sloth. And it’s not laziness per se. In fact, it can manifest a lot of times as crazy busyness, but it is a rejection of order. Essentially, it’s a rejection of God’s order. And so this idea of orderliness has been really kind of percolating a lot with me lately. And so I’m back into that book. And then I pulled out as well a Rod Drayer book. Have we talked to Rod Drayer before?

Marlin Miller:

I think we have. Which one?

Buck Alford:

Live Not By Lies. So those are kind of near the top of my stack right now of probably six books.

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. I’m in the middle of his new one, Living in Wonder, and it’s fantastic or newer. I’m not sure if it’s brand new, but it’s really, really good. He’s great. That guy, I think he thinks on a level that I can’t quite even imagine. Just really, really

Buck Alford:

Fascinating guy. Are you in anything in particular right now reading that would be of

Marlin Miller:

Note or interest for me? I’m sure it would be of interest. I mean, I told you earlier before we started that I’m in the middle of Russ Ramsey’s Rembrandt is in the wind and that’s just a fascinating tour of the history of the artists. It’s really, really good. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’m in the middle of a Kurt Thompson, the anatomy of the soul, which the way that he describes the way that we’re built for community and people and the longing to be recognized and to be seen, oh my goodness, I just love it. I first learned about him from some friends who had adopted as well, and they were using it to try to understand some of their children who have been impacted by trauma, and it’s just really, really good. So yeah, there’s a handful of others, but yeah, that’s kind of where I’m at right now.

Buck Alford:

And I want to add this real quick too, because it’s been such a treat to get to know you in this last year. And when you talk about hospitality, and I think, again, you’ve heard Melissa and I, it’s such a big focus for us, but you just ooze hospitality, put something on that, would you? But you really do. And what you and Lisa and the team are doing here is fantastic. As we were talking about beforehand, it was such a treat to be able to subscribe to both magazines. And I share it frequently and was just in Massillon this morning and was talking about the Homestead Magazine with a CEO of a credit union down there who also kind of dabbles in some small scale farming and she was familiar with it and didn’t have one, but I’m going to make sure she gets one.

But no, I just love what you guys do here. And it’s so funny when we got to the end of last year with the pigs, and as I told you last year, we were delayed in processing and finding a place that could take them and had the capacity to get our last maybe 10 pigs in. And we had some folks that had some deadlines earlier in the fall that they were expecting meat and it wasn’t ready yet. And so I had five, I don’t even remember how many, four or five pigs that I was trying to find a home for. And I appreciated. It was not at all surprising to me, but it was so refreshing that I send you that text to say, “Hey, I’ve got four pigs coming up. You know anybody in your community that might be interested in? And what’d you do?

” And not an hour you had sold four pigs for me. And so what a treat to have driven over at the end of December and you and I drive around and deliver pigs wonderful. But

Marlin Miller:

It was worth it simply to look in the back of your van and see this thing jammed full of styrofoam and ice and pork. And it was great. It was great. So I’m so glad that you texted me and just everything about … I mean, for Crown out loud, I’ve got cousins and my brother-in-law got a half and it … Yeah. Yeah. That was great. You can mentally mark Amish country in Ohio because yeah, we are customers for a long time.

Buck Alford:

Good for four or five. Okay, good. I think so.

Marlin Miller:

Well, listen, thank you so much. Yeah, of course.

Buck Alford:

This has been a blast. No, it’s been fun. So much fun. Yeah. Thanks for doing it. Thanks for asking.

Marlin Miller:

This episode is brought to you by Homestead Living Magazine. Homestead Living is a monthly print magazine that interviews all the big names in the homesteading world and they focus and educate in a wonderful way. You can learn more and subscribe at homesteadliving.com. In his book, Rembrandt is in the wind, Russ Ramsey says that the Bible is the story of the God of the universe telling his people to care for the sojourner, the poor, the orphan, and the widow, and it’s the story of his people struggling to find the humility to carry out that holy calling. Guys, that is what Plain Values is all about. If you got anything out of this podcast, you will probably love Plain Values in print. You can go to plainvalues.com to learn more and check it out. Please like, subscribe and leave us a review. Guys, love you all. Thanks so much.