The Plain Values Podcast EP #33 – Brian Dahlen: What it Means to Follow Christ in a Complicated World

Brian Dahlen:

I’d get on the subway with drunk people headed home at four in the morning and stare out the window, say, “What did I do to my family? Why are you having me do this, Lord?” People honestly usually have two reactions when they get behind a live radio microphone. They’re either petrified and never want to do it again, or it’s like taking drugs or something. And for me, it was the latter.

 

Marlin Miller:

And you’re just hooked.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I was like, “Oh my gosh, I love this.

 

Marlin Miller:

” I first met Brian Dawn four or five years ago at a fundraiser for a local school. And we immediately were connected at the hip and such beautifully kindred souls. Brian came down recently on a Saturday and we were able to hang out for a few hours. We had breakfast together and we’re just able to catch up. Brian spent 17 years on the radio for Moody Radio in Cleveland and Chicago. And he is a really gifted thinker on his feet. He has done live radio for a long time. I do stupid things. You guys never see it because our team can edit that out and they can make us look a little better than we are. Brian does not have that luxury. And so it is a real, it’s such a blast to hang out with him. He is just a really thoughtful, really kind guy.

And I really think you’re going to enjoy our conversation. Please meet our friend, Brian Dawn. And if you like the content, if you get anything out of it, I will very humbly ask you to like and comment and smash that subscribe button. Thank you. This podcast is sponsored by my friends at Azure Standard. A while back, I had a chance to sit down with the founder, David Stelzer, right here at the table. And we had a great conversation. I love the Azure story. They started out as farmers back in the ’70s and I think in 1987, they began a nationwide food distribution company. And guys, they are non- GMO, organic. They do it right. They do it so well. And you can get a truck to drop food right in your town. Check them out at Azurestandard.com and tell them Marlin and Plain Values sent you.

Can we go back all the way? Where were you born?

 

Brian Dahlen:

I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was born and raised in the Twin Cities. So a lot of people in the Ohio area are kind of like, “Oh, Minnesota.”

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

The great cold north, right? But yeah, I was born and raised. I was born in Minneapolis. My parents moved to a suburb about 30 minutes south of Minneapolis. And that’s where I spent probably my first 28 years was in Minnesota.

 

Marlin Miller:

High school, college.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Went to Burnsville Senior High School, which is again, 30 minutes south of Minneapolis. College, I went to Winona State University. Everyone’s favorite school. Nope, no one’s ever heard of it. Not here at least. So it’s the state college system in Minnesota, and it’s a small town on the Mississippi River, just across the border from Wisconsin. So it’s southeastern Minnesota.

 

Marlin Miller:

Hold

 

Brian Dahlen:

On. In the Mississippi River Valley.

 

Marlin Miller:

Hold on. The mighty Mississippi is all the way up there?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, sure. Yeah. The headwaters are in northern Minnesota.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

You can go to the very beginning of the Mississippi River in Minnesota.

 

Marlin Miller:

How big is the river where you were?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, it’s huge where I was, but way up north, it’s like a little stream right where you started. It’s pretty incredible. Actually, I don’t even know if I ever went to the headwaters. Everybody did that.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s

 

Brian Dahlen:

Kind of

 

Marlin Miller:

Cool.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But yeah, so my school was right. I could ride my bike to the Mississippi. So I did my undergraduate degree there and then became a high school teacher in a first ring suburb of Minneapolis on the north side of town. I lived in Crystal, Minnesota, and taught in Robbinsdale School District. Many people listening, just yawn. Never heard of these places. But it was a pretty big school. I mean, it was probably about 600 kids in a class at that school. It was a big high school. Wow. Taught public high school for about six school years.

 

Marlin Miller:

What did you teach?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Social studies was my general area. I taught ninth grade because that’s what they made you do when you were the new teacher, low in the totem pole. Nobody wanted to teach ninth graders, so that was geography. I taught geography the whole time, all six years. I taught one semester of psychology my first year. And one section, that was fun. Seniors and juniors taking an elective. And then taught Western civilization, which eventually, because nobody teaches that anymore, it’s now world history. I was taught world history, and that was my favorite. I taught that to juniors for six years.

 

Marlin Miller:

So at breakfast this morning, you told me that you went to Europe for multiple things, for art and for history. And was that because of your teaching or was it for something

 

Brian Dahlen:

Totally

 

Marlin Miller:

Different?

 

Brian Dahlen:

My family, I went to England as a kid, long story, too boring, and like elementary school. But then my parents took me on a European trip in college, my brother and me and some friends, and we saw a bunch of Europe. And then the cheapest way to get to Europe is when other people pay for it. So when I was a teacher, if you organize a group of students and you supervise the trip, when you contract with a company to take the students to Europe, what they do is they increase the cost for every student to cover the cost of the chaperones. So a colleague and I did two trips to Europe when I was teaching. One of them was 10 days in Italy and Greece. We started in Rome and then … Where did we go? We stopped in Pisa. We went to Florence.

We went to the Chinquatera and then we took a boat to Greece and took the students through Delphi and then ultimately into Athens. And then we did a second trip in Europe. It was far too many countries, but we did 10 days where we were in Italy, Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, and then I think we left. I forget where we flew out of. Germany.

 

Marlin Miller:

So you spent-

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I didn’t pay for any of the trip. The kids did. It’s the best way to go.

 

Marlin Miller:

But you didn’t have any time to … I mean, you were there.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Did you see a few things in each country or how did that actually go down?

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was quick, but- It seems

 

Marlin Miller:

Like it could be kind of frustrating.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes. But we had a full day in Florence. And so my very favorite part of world history, I have two favorite eras and they’re generally taught together, Renaissance and Reformation, because historically they kind of butt up against each other. Renaissance I fell in love with in college when I had just a wonderful professor that taught that course and I happened to be taking that college trip to Europe at the same time. And I was a geek, so I asked for an alternative assignment, so just skipping class. And since we were studying Renaissance art, he said, “Well, you’re going to Europe, go to these places and write a paper about it. ” And so while I’m learning about this, I’m at the Louvre and I’m seeing great Renaissance works and they have a whole Renaissance hallway where there was some da Vinci stuff and obviously the Mona Lisa’s there and a whole bunch of other ones.

And then when I was in … I was teaching it then when I was taking students there. And so I didn’t care how long I had, but we went to the Ufizi in Florence, see the David.

 

Marlin Miller:

Is the Pieta over …

 

Brian Dahlen:

The Pieta is at in Vatican City and the Pieta is one of my very favorites. I love that you know the Pieta. Most people don’t know about it, especially evangelicals are just like, the what? No, no. Yeah, the Pieta is in kind of the … I don’t know what it’s called, but at St. Peter’s Pasilica in Rome at the Vatican, it’s one of the main statues there. And I think that’s Michelangelo’s greatest work.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’ve read many folks that say it is the single greatest piece of art ever.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It seems impossible that he could … So for those who don’t know, it’s Mary holding the dead body of Jesus cut in one slab of marble. It doesn’t look like it should stand up and actually-

 

Marlin Miller:

How big is it? It’s

 

Brian Dahlen:

Enormous. It’s huge. Yeah, it’s huge. It’s huge. In fact, you know the story around what happened with that? So you probably do if you’ve read a lot about it.

 

Marlin Miller:

Well, I think I do, but I don’t know it that well. So

 

Brian Dahlen:

He was a relatively new and unknown sculptor when he did that. And so he sculpts the Pieta and it goes on display and no one believed it was him at first. And so he went and carved his name into the bottom, like Michelangelo, it says at the bottom of it, just to prove that it was him who did it because it was so incredible. That’s

 

Marlin Miller:

Unreal.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But his favorite work of mine is on the back wall of the Sistine Chapel. People love the Sistine Chapel and he wasn’t a painter when he did that. He was commissioned to do it. He was a sculptor. So he laid in his back forever on scaffolding and painted the ceiling. That’s why a lot of his art, his painting looks like sculpt, sculpted people because that was his primary art, right? Well, the back wall is called the last judgment. Have you been to the Sistine Chapel?

 

Marlin Miller:

No, I’ve never been to Europe at all.

 

Brian Dahlen:

You got to go. We’ll go. We should go together.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh my goodness.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I would love it.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m in. I’m in.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. So the back wall is the last judgment, which is supposed to be in the final judgment where people are either going to heaven or going to hell. Like the

 

Marlin Miller:

Great white throne.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Essentially, but it’s a depiction of angels pulling people into heaven, saints into heaven and pulling people into hell. And there’s portions of it that are very famous. There’s a guy that’s like got this horrible look on his face. He’s being pulled into hell that a lot of people know. That’s just a small little portion of it. It’s incredible. It covers the whole back wall of the Sistine Chapel.

 

Marlin Miller:

When did Dante write?

 

Brian Dahlen:

The Inferno?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I don’t remember the years. It was part of the Renaissance. I

 

Marlin Miller:

Thought so. It was 14 or 15,

 

Brian Dahlen:

Something. And that thing is insane. I mean, people actually, in pop culture, people have come to think of hell in that way, even though it’s totally fictionalized on his part. His creativity- With all the

 

Marlin Miller:

Layers and- Yeah. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

His stadistic creativity is pretty breathtaking.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. I may have tried to start it a few times and I’m trying again now, but I’m not getting anywhere.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I found it’s more interesting to actually … There’s some artists who’ve done depictions of it, and if you can just get to his descriptions of what each layer of hell is. You’re familiar with the pit of hell and his depiction?

Yeah.

Yeah. For those who don’t know, it’s crazy. So there’s three people in the pit of hell, Brutus, Cassius, and Judas. Yeah. So the two men that murdered Caesar, which again, interesting theologically, you shouldn’t kill people, but they’re hanging out with Judas. It’s a three-headed beast that slowly eats them and then regurgitates them and resuscitates them and eats them again for eternity. That’s the pit of hell, if I remember it correctly. But there’s others that … I mean, I don’t remember them all, but it’s sick, it’s twisted, it’s disgusting, and each layer is a perceived worst sin.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. Like the penalty for the …

 

Brian Dahlen:

These are the liars. These are the swindlers. These are the adulterers. These are the … Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

The ones-

 

Brian Dahlen:

They each get their own level.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s unbelievable. I’ve not read it. I’ve not read

 

Brian Dahlen:

It. I’ve read excerpts. I don’t know many people have gotten all the way through it. Some people have, but I’m not that nerdy. I’m just a little nerdy. I like

 

Marlin Miller:

Excerpts. Oh, goodness. So

 

Brian Dahlen:

You’re teaching- I love that. I rarely get to talk about stuff like

 

Marlin Miller:

That.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s fun.

 

Marlin Miller:

So you’re teaching high school outside of Minneapolis. When did you and your wife get married?

 

Brian Dahlen:

We got married June 28th, 2003. So we got married about a year after I started teaching. What

 

Marlin Miller:

Date? June?

 

Brian Dahlen:

28th.

 

Marlin Miller:

June 28th. Is

 

Brian Dahlen:

That your anniversary or something?

 

Marlin Miller:

We got married June 28th, 2002.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, crazy. What day of the week was that? In 2002? Ours

 

Marlin Miller:

Was a Saturday. I think it was Friday.

 

Brian Dahlen:

How did that happen two years in a row?

 

Marlin Miller:

I don’t know.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow. No kidding.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Crazy.

 

Marlin Miller:

So same date, a year apart.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Look at us.

 

Marlin Miller:

There

 

Brian Dahlen:

You go. It’s meant to be, Marlon.

 

Marlin Miller:

There you go. That’s right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, I started teaching in 2002.

 

Marlin Miller:

Okay.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And so I taught for a full school year and then got married.

 

Marlin Miller:

Okay. What’s your wife’s name again?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sarah. Without an H.

 

Marlin Miller:

Without an H. I’m glad I asked or I’m glad you told me.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I make it clear because I’m constantly critical people. I always know someone knows my wife if they spell her name right.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Right. Right. So you guys have six kids?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Five.

 

Marlin Miller:

Five kids. Okay. Dog on. Okay.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Feels like six or 16 sometimes, but five. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

And how old are they?

 

Brian Dahlen:

So my oldest daughter, Grace, is 20. My son Marshall is 18.

 

Marlin Miller:

And in the army.

 

Brian Dahlen:

My daughter, Grace, is in the- Your

 

Marlin Miller:

Daughter’s in the … I

 

Brian Dahlen:

Thought

 

Marlin Miller:

It was

 

Brian Dahlen:

Your son.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m sorry.

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, no. My oldest daughter, Grace is 20 and she is the first woman in her company in the 82nd Airborne. Wow. So she’s in the US Army in the infantry and made it all the way to the 82nd Airborne. We’re very proud. She gets her toughness from her mother, not from me. Wow. And it’s been incredible to watch. There are very few women in the infantry in the U. In fact, they’ve only been allowed to be in the infantry since 2016, but in combat roles, it’s even more difficult because they don’t have different standards. They never have in the 82nd. And so she was able to make the standard to get into the 82nd.

 

Marlin Miller:

Can we park there for a second?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

How do you, as mom and dad, feel about your daughter being in the infantry in the army? Can I bring a little bit of context?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, yeah. Because there’s a lot of different areas we could go in

 

Marlin Miller:

There.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Different feelings. Right.

 

Marlin Miller:

I should clarify. I’m sorry. I’m not very good at this.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, right.

 

Marlin Miller:

So if you know Doug Wilson from Canon Press.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sure.

 

Marlin Miller:

Doug is a bit of a firebrand, right? Yes. Obviously. But one thing that I tend to agree with is his approach to the military where it is not the job of a woman to go fight. And I don’t know exactly how that plays itself out in a situation like yours. And I’m just glad that we can talk about this and I don’t have to worry about you kicking me under the table or

 

Brian Dahlen:

Something. Well, no, no. I think I like talking about difficult topics, and this is certainly one of the controversial ones. In fact, in 2016, when the military allowed women to be in combat roles, we talked about it on the radio.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I remember being conflicted.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s an interesting thing because the roles for biblical men and women are different. They are different in many ways. But I also am not dumb enough to think that a woman can’t do a lot of the same things that a man can do. And so how does that play itself out? That’s where the fun conversation

 

Brian Dahlen:

Comes in. Yeah. I mean, if my daughter were here, she would tell you that she doesn’t think there ought to be a different standard for women, and particularly in combat roles.

 

Marlin Miller:

She

 

Brian Dahlen:

Doesn’t think- Hold on.

 

Marlin Miller:

Hold on. Did you just say that she would say that for her to do what she does, she would say that she needs to rise up to the qualifications and the standards that a man has to reach to serve in that role?

 

Brian Dahlen:

To be in the 82nd, it’s my understanding. Again, I’m not a veteran.

 

Marlin Miller:

Interesting.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. Veterans watching may have something else to say or listening, but to be in the 82nd Airborne as a woman, you can’t … There’s no woman standard. There’s no

 

Marlin Miller:

Dropdown. It is, you are going

 

Brian Dahlen:

To be here. You have to eat this standard.

 

Marlin Miller:

And that’s it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Which is why she’s the first woman in her company- To do it. … ever. Wow. And it’s 2025 when we record this. So she would tell you there ought to not be a different standard. Now, I mean, if you talk to veterans from the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, the overall standards have changed for all military, not just men. Some of the expectations in terms of physical fitness have declined a little bit, but anecdotally, I think some of that as well is because lifestyle in America has changed so much that as my daughter would talk about, drill sergeants were indicating to her that essentially people used to come more combat ready into bootcamp, as in when people lived a more active lifestyle, you weren’t getting somebody off of a couch in front of video games into bootcamp, but that’s more what they’re facing now. And so they have to … You can’t keep the standard where it used to be, but you can bring people up to the standard that’s necessary.

It just may not be the same starting line, if that makes sense.

 

Marlin Miller:

It makes total sense.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Makes total sense. And physiologically, I was fascinated by this. Over, I would say just conservatively, about half the women that started with her in bootcamp in the infantry didn’t make it to the end.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really? To where they quit?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No. A lot of them physiologically, it was primarily their hips. They would get stress fractures and fractures in their hips and they physiologically and physically couldn’t make it through, not psychologically.

 

Marlin Miller:

They were tough enough.

 

Brian Dahlen:

They were tougher, but their bodies were not able to stand. A couple of her friends were forced out because of some fractures in their hips.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because of the toll it takes. And in fact, she has to decide long term how long she wants to stay in the 82nd because when you drop out of an airplane at like 1200 feet or less, it’s not skydiving, it’s not parachuting. You are jumping on an airplane and landing at about 20 miles an hour and you learn how to fall. All the training in airborne school is feet and knees together. Here’s how you collapse onto the ground. And so it’s not good for your body to do that. But she has always been into strength training. So she would go to weight rooms all the time in high school and she loves strength training. So I think that physiologically she had enough muscle tone and tendon strength to be able to make it that far.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow. That’s really fascinating.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Well, thank you.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s a unique topic. It’s a unique aspect to my family and of my daughter. I’m very proud of her.

I appreciate that you asked that question because a lot of people are more like, Brian, are you okay? It’s scary combat. Well, I’ve got a couple answers to that. I try not to think about the combat part of it, number one. We’ll cross that bridge if we get there. Number two, my wife and I are passionate about allowing our children to go where the Lord leads them, not where we want them to go. And I think a lot of parents, especially in American culture, either live vicariously through their children or compel their children onto a path that they’re not interested in. And so we really want to guide them into do what they want to do. She did a year of undergraduate school at University of Toledo and didn’t like it,

And it wasn’t a good fit for her. And so she said, “I don’t want to do the same way. I want to go in the army.” We said, “Okay, go. ” But the other aspect of the fear part of it with military is that she would tell you, warfare has changed so much that warfare is drones and Air Force. When’s the last time ground troops went in somewhere other than like Ukraine for some serious ground battle? Warfare has changed so much that the odds of her being in some sort of intense, even urban combat is just not likely

 

Marlin Miller:

The

 

Brian Dahlen:

Way warfare has changed. So I’m not too nervous about that.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Did … Boy, it’s the whole … Okay, I’m going to back up. Yeah, sure. Years ago, I read a book called On Killing. I don’t know why I read it. I don’t know. And I-

 

Brian Dahlen:

It sounds interesting. I’d read that book.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s fascinating.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

And here’s the point. He said, and I forget the author’s name, obviously he was a combat veteran guy, but he said that when you go back to hand to hand, fighting and killing was a very intimate, very personal, very close thing. Then you put a rifle in someone’s hand, moving from a sword or a dagger to a rifle and it changes the game entirely. Now you’re looking at someone through a scope and today, as you know, it’s a video game. It’s a video game and you’re flying a drone and you’re dropping a bomb or you’re whatever and a jet, an F-15 or an F22, you don’t see them. You don’t know anything. You’re not looking at them. He told stories about snipers sitting and having to watch their target for hours before they pull the trigger. I can’t imagine what that would do to you.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I mean, I’m not wired for that kind of life, and there’s a little bit more of a moral conflict in my head, but I know there’s different theological positions on that, and I trust that my daughter is facing that herself. I hope she doesn’t have to find herself in combat where she has to take somebody’s life, but I wouldn’t choose that, but I don’t question her integrity in it in that … Again, you know theologically, there’s so many different ways to approach that. You’ve got pacifists on one end, and you’ve got others when you even look at … Oh gosh, what’s the Roman Catholic … Just war theory, just war theory. Just war theory would take you down a road where there is justified military action. And just war theory is pretty compelling, that there are circumstances where it’s not only correct, but perhaps righteous to enter into warfare.

 

Marlin Miller:

Like a moral obligation.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I don’t know the ins and outs of just war theory. I couldn’t quote it to you, but I’ve read through most of it. You see what I mean? There’s such a spectrum. I do. The older I get, the more I tend to lean towards pacifism. I’m not a pacifist, but I don’t know.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

As far as it depends, I mean, I’m supposed to live at peace with everyone, and so that’s kind of what I’d like to do.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. My father-in-law, obviously … What’s the name of the movie with … Is it Hacksaw Ridge? Yes. Where the guy- A great movie. Unbelievable movie. True story. The Menic. Yeah. Yeah. The Medic. And he was from Pennsylvania. He’s Mennonite. He was a Mennonite, I believe. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And they’re pacifist. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. And I mean, unbelievable movie in its own right as art, just an unbelievable movie, but the story is ridiculously amazing. Heroic. Unbelievably heroic. My father-in-law served in the army, I believe, and he basically said, “Lord, I will go, but if you put me in a situation where I have to take someone’s life, I will lay it down. I’m not going to kill anybody.”

 

Brian Dahlen:

Wow.

 

Marlin Miller:

And he went into intelligence. He went into crazy, early iterations of the internet type stuff. Wow. Amazing things. He had clearances that I can’t even imagine, but I’ve always found that really interesting that you … He chose to serve where many my grandpa included said, “Nope, I’ll go into voluntary service.” And so he was a smoke jumper in Colorado.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, but there’s a wonderful podcast called Revisionist History by Malcolm Gladwell. Are you familiar? I love

 

Marlin Miller:

Gladwell.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He’s one of my very favorites, probably the best storyteller alive. And in his series, he’d had a couple of different episodes where he highlights the heroism of Mennonites in World War

II,

Where far too often pacifists are depicted as apathetic or uncaring about our country. And he did maybe a two-part series on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Have you heard about this?

 

Marlin Miller:

I think I have.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was a group of Mennonites who volunteered as an alternative to military service to-

 

Marlin Miller:

I do

 

Brian Dahlen:

Remember it. Under the supervision of doctors and scientists at the University of Minnesota to systematically be starved almost to death so they could learn what happens to the body and then how you can successfully bring someone back from starvation.

 

Marlin Miller:

Brian, is that the story where the guy from the trauma of starving ends up making creamsticks and donuts and taking him around to everybody that he could for a long time?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

 

Marlin Miller:

And he found the most unbelievable joy in bringing these beautiful treats. I think we listened to the exact

 

Brian Dahlen:

Same podcast. It is that. I know that’s- That’s the story. And the heroism of those individuals, those pacifists who were a part of that experiment for the US government were equally as heroic as those who chose to serve in battle. If not dare I say more. Now, I’m not trying to … I have veterans in my family, my grandfathers both served in World War II. I’m not saying they aren’t heroic, but the bravery it takes to voluntarily starve yourself.

 

Marlin Miller:

I can’t imagine. We don’t know hunger. “Oh, I’m so starving. I’m so hungry. “No, no, no, you’re not. You’re not.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. And I think that was Malcolm Gladwell’s point, was to make sure when you look at the story that you don’t look at those who are pacifists as unpatriotic or lacking in courage, he likes to reexamine things in history. And so again, I’m not a pacifist. I’m not saying that, but I think they often get a bad rap and when you learn about what they did, it’s pretty incredible.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

A smoke jumper, I mean, come on, that’s not small stuff.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s not. Yeah. And early on, those Amish and those Mennonites, there were a few, and I don’t remember the details of the story. I should know this, but there were a few that were imprisoned and I think there was a set of brothers. Wasn’t it a set of brothers that ended up dying in … They were locked up and they were tortured by their cellmates and they ended up actually passing away- Goodness

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sakes.

 

Marlin Miller:

… because of that animosity towards the … I don’t want to say the … I mean, yeah, they were passivists, but that’s exactly right. Thank you.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Conscientious objectives.

 

Marlin Miller:

The CEOs, it was conscientious objectors.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, and see, in the Vietnam era, there were people that just skipped the draft and fled the country, but conscientious objectors in World War II could do alternative service if they didn’t want to be in combat. And so they were doing things like the Minnesota Starvation Experiment or you’re saying essentially a firefighter, right? Fighting forest fires.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yep.

 

Brian Dahlen:

So-

 

Marlin Miller:

I’ve got uncles who served at hospitals and all Kinds of things. Yeah. It was all tied back to that. Yeah. My goodness, that was quite a bunny trail off of your family. So Grace is 20, Marshall is 18. Go.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And then Sophia is 17. She’s a senior in high school. Mathias is 13 in eighth grade and Theodore is 11 in sixth grade.

 

Marlin Miller:

Very cool.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s a

 

Marlin Miller:

Lot.That’s a lot. And you live up outside of the Amish community, up north.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes. I live outside of Garrettsville, Ohio, which has a smaller Amish community, although middle field not too far away as I think the fifth largest Amish settlement in America. I think

 

Marlin Miller:

It is. I don’t

 

Brian Dahlen:

Know if it’s any larger than where we are here in the Sugar Creek area, right?

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s a good bit smaller than here.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because

 

Marlin Miller:

Holmes County is … Oh, this is number one or two.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Is it?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Lancaster, Ohio. Or I’m sorry. There is a Lancaster, Ohio, but Lancaster, Pennsylvania is number one or two. Excuse me. And then Holmes County, Ohio is number one or two. And they kind of take number one every so often away from the other one. But then I think there’s an Indiana settlement and then I think you’re right that the middle field area is number four or five, I think.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

But it’s a big area up there

 

Brian Dahlen:

For sure. Yeah. We love it there. It’s a little five and a half acre. I won’t call it a farm because we’re not farmers. I’m not doing actual farm work. I don’t want to offend any farmers. We have a barn and we have some animals, but I don’t count as a farmer by any stretch, but it’s country. So we’ve lived anywhere from suburbs to city. We lived in the city of Chicago. Most people that tell you they’re from Chicago are liars

 

Marlin Miller:

Because

 

Brian Dahlen:

They’re from a suburb. Drives me nuts.

 

Marlin Miller:

Because they don’t ever live in the metro side or-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, because the city limits. In Illinois, people go, “Where are you from? Oh, I’m from Chicago.” Where? And you have to ask a follow-up question. Where in Chicago?

 

Marlin Miller:

Because it’s so huge.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. But what people have to say then is the suburb they live in. Oh, well, I live in Aurora. Oh, you live in Aurora. Okay, great. Well, that’s like an hour away from the city. Rockford. Rockford, hour and a half. Good. I knew people who lived an hour and a half away in Northwest Indiana, different state who would say they’re from Chicago. I lived in Chicago. I was a resident of the city of Chicago. Not that I’m all proud of that, just for clarity’s sake, I lived in Chicago. And now we live in the country and that’s kind of where we’d like to stay.

 

Marlin Miller:

Okay. I’m sorry. How long ago did you start working for Moody Radio?

 

Brian Dahlen:

I started working for Moody Radio in June of 2008 and then wrapped up my time with them in May of 2025.

 

Marlin Miller:

How did you get into radio? How did that work?

 

Brian Dahlen:

So back way up, and I don’t remember, I’ve never really kept track of the year, but when I was living in Minnesota and teaching high school, my church at the time, a small little AFLC Lutheran Church, Association of Free Lutheran Congregations, Conservative Lutheran Church. They bought airtime on a small AM radio station called KKMS out of Minneapolis. And the pastor did a two hour show. For most of the time it was just him, but he would also do Bible Q&A. He was a big personality. And I was a guest on the show once. I think it was even an anonymous guest talking about being a Christian, a public school teacher. And people honestly usually have two reactions when they get behind a live radio microphone. They’re either petrified and never want to do it again, or it’s like taking drugs or something. And for me, it was the latter.

 

Marlin Miller:

And you’re just hooked.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I was like, “Oh my gosh, I love this.

 

Marlin Miller:

“

 

Brian Dahlen:

So I was able to be a guest again and then eventually I volunteered. I was like, “Hey, you guys need help? I love this. ” So I became a producer of the show, eventually became a part-time employee. And then the pastor took a six month sabbatical and I took the show for six months on my own and I just loved it. And I had a chance to interact with a lot of different people. And so as part of that, I interviewed a guy, I forget the … Well, I can’t remember the name of the book, but anyway, the author is Mark Elstrand. And I looked at the back of the book. It was a book on manhood. Forgive me, Mark, for not remembering the name of it, if you’re listening for the name of your book. And on the back, it has quick bio. And he said he was the morning show host at WNBI in Chicago.

And I was like, “Cool.” So during a break in the interview, I said, “Hey, would you ever mind talking to me offline? I want to ask you some questions about radio and expanding radio ministry.”

 

Marlin Miller:

And this is 08, 06.

 

Brian Dahlen:

No,

 

Marlin Miller:

6. Probably

 

Brian Dahlen:

Like 05.

 

Marlin Miller:

5. Okay.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Six, something like that. And he was like, “Sure.” So I scheduled a phone call. We had a nice chat. Long story short, I had family who were like, “You should look into maybe changing careers.” And I was like, “People don’t work in radio. It’s ridiculous. Who does that? ” I’m a teacher. I had a master’s degree in education. What am I just going to stop teaching?

Yeah.

And so the Lord did what he was going to do, which is oftentimes he pushes people who are too stubborn like me. And I was put in a situation where I couldn’t teach at the school district I was at anymore. I have to qualify that so no one thinks there was some sort of malfeasance going on here. But the school district, this is such a weird story, but I’ll share it. The school district in Minnesota, each district has their own insurance. The teachers don’t collectivize in the state of Minnesota, or they didn’t then. And so it’s a small pool for health insurance. And somebody in human resources at the school district thought it’d be a great idea to take bids, take the lowest bidder, lowest bidder always undercuts their cost, dump them after a year and go to the next one. So we just kept getting new cards every year.

And I was like, “Okay, whatever. I don’t care. As long as I have good insurance.” Well, pretty soon they ran through all of the insurance companies. Nobody else would take bids. And so one year, our premiums doubled and then the next year doubled again. And they tried to deceive us in this in that the premium, they just changed the title of the column so that when it doubled, it was like, oh, this is actually … It’s something

 

Marlin Miller:

Else.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Not once a month. And I caught it at a student teacher at the time and it was untenable. It was a $900 premium a month and a $5,000 deductible in the early 2000s. And I had two kids and a pregnant wife and I was the primary breadwinner. The math didn’t work. I couldn’t keep teaching there. So I had to either find a new place to teach or change careers. And so I was like, “All right, Lord, what do you have for me? ” I applied to work at Target Corporate Warehouse. Their corporate office is in Minneapolis. I applied to some districts, school districts in town, did some interviews. And a buddy of mine at a church forced me. He’s like, “You just got to write to that guy from Chicago, just write to him.” I go, “What am I going to say? I want to be in radio.”

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m a teacher now.

 

Brian Dahlen:

“I want to be in radio. Help me. “And he was like, ” Yeah, essentially. “So to humor this guy, I wrote it in the email. I said,” Hey, you remember me? It’s Brian. If you’re ever in Minnesota, I’d love to take you out to dinner and pick your brain about being on radio because I’m thinking about changing careers, send. “Never thought he’d write back. He wrote back and he said,” My sister lives in Minneapolis and I’m going to be there next month. You can buy me dinner. “And I was like, ” Okay. “So I went to dinner, I bought him dinner and in the midst of the conversation, we hit it off and he said,” Well, I wish I would have known you were looking for a job. I would have hired you. “I said,” Excuse me? “I went home that day and said,” Honey, I think we’re moving to Chicago.

“And she said,” Well, you might probably go in by yourself because we’re not moving. Our families are all there.

 

Marlin Miller:

“Can I just say,” I love stories like this. I love stories like this because you know there’s this conflict just waiting to happen with you

 

Brian Dahlen:

And

 

Marlin Miller:

Sarah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

“She essentially was like- You’re

 

Marlin Miller:

Going by yourself. I’m

 

Brian Dahlen:

Not going to- If you’re going to go, we’ll have to get divorced or something because I’m not doing this. But it was so clearly the Lord’s plan that … I mean, every door shut in front of me. I could tell you more stories about … I had an interview my superintendent of a school district that just went south and I thought I was going to get a tap in at that school district. It was the only door open and …

 

Marlin Miller:

Bam. And

 

Brian Dahlen:

I had a tenured teaching job. And for those who aren’t familiar, unless you break the law, you don’t lose your job for the rest of your career. So I had a guaranteed job in a union the rest of my life and I quit and we packed up our stuff and moved our babies to Chicago and-

 

Marlin Miller:

Wait, wait, wait. That guy, Mark, said- He

 

Brian Dahlen:

Advocated for me. He

 

Marlin Miller:

Did.

 

Brian Dahlen:

So there was another job open at Moody Bible Institute for Moody Radio that I applied for and got a letter of rejection for because they’re like, ” Your qualifications don’t fit. “Of course they don’t. And I wrote to him, I said,” Hey, just so you know, I applied for that job, “they sent me a letter because that doesn’t fit. He went into his supervisor and said,” This is crazy. We got to hire this guy. I want to hire this guy.

 

Marlin Miller:

“Why did he say that? I

 

Brian Dahlen:

Had no idea.

 

Marlin Miller:

He

 

Brian Dahlen:

Saw

 

Marlin Miller:

Something in you and-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Connected. He saw something in me. He needed a producer at that time. He had just had another turnover and he said, he stuck his neck out for me and he shouldn’t have. There’s no logical reason for him to do it. Wow.

And so

Even though I got a rejection letter, he convinced the program director to take a chance on a school teacher from Minnesota. At the time I was 28, 28 year old … I mean, everybody thought there were whispers in the hallways about, ” What is he doing hiring that teacher? What does he know about radio? “Nothing really. I was self-taught. So the learning curve was very steep, but I got offered a job, took a pay cut to quit a union job and moved to Chicago. And just because we knew it was Lord was calling us to do it. It was really hard. We left all of our family. I remember because it was a morning show, I’d go to work, I’d get up about three in the morning and I’d get on … We lived right off the L tracks if the L’s the subway, but it’s above ground in Chicago.

The red line, we didn’t know this at the time. We rented an apartment. We were the third level on the sixth flat and it looked straight out onto the L tracks.

 

Marlin Miller:

It was totally leveled.

 

Brian Dahlen:

They were elevated. And so it was an alley and the L behind us.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh, man.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And we moved in. We didn’t know that the only 24 hour line at the time was the red line.

 

Marlin Miller:

And

 

Brian Dahlen:

You were right there. So 24 hours a day, the subway ran behind our house. Well, I took that red line, that’s why we moved to it so I could take it downtown. I’d get on the subway with drunk people headed home at four in the morning and stare out the window, say,” What did I do to my family? Why are you having me do this, Lord? “But very long story short, it ended up being the career path the Lord had for me until now when I got laid off in May.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow. So how did Sarah come around to seeing it? What happened there?

 

Brian Dahlen:

She would tell you it was the Lord. She prayed about it and it was so clearly what the Lord had in front of us. It was the only option I had to change careers and have any sort of future at that point. And I really wanted to do it.

 

Marlin Miller:

You just felt it. It was-

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was both God’s will and a deep desire. I had begged the Lord for the opportunity to get into … I knew I wouldn’t retire in teaching. I liked it, but I knew I wouldn’t retire in it. And being in radio, I thought would be a dream. And nobody goes from not in radio to major market. So the way radio works, right, it’s ranked by market size and there’s only three cities that are major market radio stations To be considered a major market radio station, you’re either in New York, Los Angeles or Chicago. Chicago’s the-

 

Marlin Miller:

You go from nothing.

 

Brian Dahlen:

To the number three.

 

Marlin Miller:

To number three.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And in radio, morning show is the pinnacle of what to be … You’d think it sounds horrible for hours, but that’s where the destination is. That’s the most listened to time in radio.

 

Marlin Miller:

So qualify that. Are we talking six to nine? Are we talking nine to noon?

 

Brian Dahlen:

That show was five to nine.

 

Marlin Miller:

Five to nine.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Most markets at six to 10. So I went from not in radio, like on a little AM station that I wasn’t employed by. We bought time on to producer of a major market morning show, which again- Wow. … apart from a work of the Lord and a major market radio talent taking a risk on me, I wouldn’t … It’s unheard of.

 

Marlin Miller:

Never happens.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Never happens. It does a little bit more now, but back in the day, never.

 

Marlin Miller:

And it probably happens more now today because of podcasting.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Somewhat, yeah. Although the radio world is changing a lot where … I mean, it used to be … I mean, in major markets, if you were the morning show on a secular morning show, you’d be making over a million dollars a year.

 

Marlin Miller:

What?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, sure. There were people- Oh my

 

Marlin Miller:

Goodness.

 

Brian Dahlen:

The top radio talent in Cleveland, Ohio in the 1980s was probably making half a million.

 

Marlin Miller:

In the 1980s, that is like making a million now.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because it was one of the … You got to remember back in the day, one of the only ways for marketing, one of the primary avenues for marketing was radio. Yeah, television, radio, newspaper. It was those big three. Well, that’s changed tremendously now. So the value of the job has dramatically reduced, and the value of the medium has reduced when there’s more competition. So it’s not nearly as lucrative as it used to be. And so not many people make a living at it anymore. And what Moody did by shutting down all their local stations is the way of the industry. Salem Communications did something very similar. They sold off all their music stations, and so K Love is a popular network. They have one morning show on thousands of radio stations. That’s out of Nashville.

 

Marlin Miller:

And it’s impersonal and it’s …

 

Brian Dahlen:

And that’s the same with now all of Moody radio stations across the country have one morning show originating in Chicago. In

 

Marlin Miller:

Chicago.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Great guy. I know Carl’s a great guy. He’s a friend of mine, happens to be on the radio station I used to be on now, but …

 

Marlin Miller:

This episode of the Plain Values Podcast is being brought to you by my friends at Kentucky Lumber. Derek and I were talking this morning and he shared a story about how they like to do business and they like to do business with people that are like them and they like to be treated in a way that they treat their own customers. He told me about a customer of theirs that he had to fire. And this was not going the way that it typically does. And this guy was not being happy with anything that they did and nothing was good enough. And finally Derek said,” You know what? You’ve disrespected my team enough and I think we’re done. And so you can go find your lumber someplace else. “And the attitude and the heart behind the way that Derek sees the world is exactly the way that I see the world and I have a hunch you might as well.

If you call Kentucky Lumber, just know that they might fire you if you treat them poorly.

I’m kidding, of course. But they will treat you with the utmost respect because it’s how they want to be treated. And I think there’s a golden rule thing in there somewhere, but if you need anything at all to do with any lumber, wood flooring, wood siding, any type of wood product that has character just baked into it and a great team to match, call my friends at Kentuckylumber. You can find them at drywallhaters.com. So you were in Chicago, you were doing the morning thing there and taking the L and saying,” What are you doing here, Lord? “How did you leave Chicago and end up in Cleveland?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Again, God’s grace and the unmerited favor of a couple of leaders in the organization, they became dear friends. My friend Scott Cruz, who now runs the KHCB network in Houston, Josue Villa owns Malama Media Group now. He’s got a station group in Hawaii.

 

Marlin Miller:

I believe I know Josue.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, you’ve met Josue. He’s one of my mentors and he’s incredible. A guy named Dan Craig, and then Mark Elfstrand. Those four men gave me opportunities I didn’t deserve. So Mark and Dan gave me the five o’clock hour on Fridays for over a year where I got to host the major market morning show. Mark sat in his office and listened and I hosted the five o’clock hour on Fridays and it was … I mean, no one gets this chance. And I had a major market talent and his program director coaching me, which nobody gets this. It was such a blessing. And then I hosted holidays for seven years. Every Thanksgiving, New Year’s Day, you name the holiday. Labor Day Memorial Day, I was on the air. It was Brian Donald. Nobody was listening.That’s how you got practice.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right. Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I did that for like seven years and worked my way up from last call substitute where I remember I was like fourth on the list for our host on the morning show. When they got there once, they found somebody else because they didn’t know me or trust me. It’s a big hundred thousand watt radio station in Chicago. You don’t just hand that to some teacher.

But I slowly worked my way up the sublist and then when Mark’s season ended at WNBI in Chicago, I was given the opportunity to be the interim host for nine months. It was like a team teaching thing. It was three of us. Cisco Codo who’s now on the number one station in Chicago, WBBM. Steve Hiller was a dear friend of mine and a radio host out of Nashville. And then I, I hosted two days a week. Cisco hosted two and Steve hosted one. And then my friend, this is deep in the weeds, somebody’s fast forwarding through this, but my friend Scott Cruz, who again runs the KHCB network, he was sent to Cleveland to take over WCRF. I don’t remember what year. It probably would have been 2013 maybe, 2012. And then in 2015, he gave me a call and brought me out to host the morning show at WCRF.

And I did that for almost a decade. The Lord knew I’d get a big head if I had some sort of 10 year celebration. So pulled the plug like nine and a half, nine and three quarters years or something.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow. And that just happened in May.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes. Yeah. Big life transition.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I took you deeper than you

 

Marlin Miller:

Wanted to. Yeah, that was great. And so you and I met originally, we met through a mutual friend, Mark Gregston.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Mark Gregston of parenting today’s team. That’s exactly right. Human beings I’ve ever met.

 

Marlin Miller:

They don’t get much better. I must ask you a question. Yeah. It’s absolutely brilliant. That guy, Mark and his wife are just- They’re treasures. … and is a riot. We sat at a wedding together a while back and I think we about … Yeah, we about lost it. It was hilarious.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He texted me when I got laid off and the fact that Mark Gregston remembers that I exist is one thing, but that he would text me when I got laid off, meant a lot to me. He’s a dear brother. In fact, hilarious. One time he was brought to Ohio to speak at a banquet for a Christian school as the featured speaker, because he’s big time. And he called me up and he asked me to be his plus one. I was his date to the banquet. Which is

 

Marlin Miller:

Exactly the evening we met.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Is it?

 

Marlin Miller:

It is exactly the evening we met.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Gosh, you know what? That’s right. I forgot we met. I thought we met for some reason at the stage, but yeah, we met at that banquet. It’s

 

Marlin Miller:

Exactly the … That is the evening

 

Brian Dahlen:

We met. That’s going to be like a two hour drive for you.

 

Marlin Miller:

It was a poke. Yeah. It was a

 

Brian Dahlen:

Poke. Couldn’t sakes.

 

Marlin Miller:

But that was the very first time that Mark and I had actually met in person.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Really?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because you were both connected through a legend in Christian radio, Roger Kemp, right?

 

Marlin Miller:

Well …

 

Brian Dahlen:

No?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. Mark introduced me to Roger.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. Roger is a … Okay. How’d you meet Mark?

 

Marlin Miller:

Seth, how did we meet Mark?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh,

 

Marlin Miller:

It was through Rory. Rory Feek introduced us.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, because I know Mark was a cover girl on your magazine.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. And he still writes

 

Brian Dahlen:

For us. Obviously. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

He still writes for us every issue.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. His picture’s so good on your magazine. Look at the front. Look at this guy. He’s a stun.

 

Marlin Miller:

He’s so great. I’m going to embarrass Lisa a little bit. There are not many people that my wife enjoys as much as Mark and Jan Gregston.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, they’re genuine people.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh my

 

Brian Dahlen:

Goodness.

 

Marlin Miller:

And they love the Lord. Lisa absolutely just loves spending time. I’ve got photos at that banquet where Lisa’s holding the bouquet at the end of the evening and Mark is acting all … And she is about pee in her pants and it is the funniest thing ever. And they’re just some of our favorite photos of Mark ever.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, we talked about this concept over breakfast today, but Mark is what I would call a kindred spirit in the gospel.

Yeah.

And he totally gets it. In fact, at this banquet, I don’t know if you remember this, but this really struck me. There was his introduction by … I’m going to be as generic as possible because I don’t want to embarrass anybody.

Yeah.

His introduction was very, dare I say, political. And it was kind of combative towards non-believers. And Mark got up there and in a really gracious way, said something along the lines of, “Just make no mistake. I don’t want there to be any mistake here. I love unsafe people. And I’m not the guy that bashes unsafe people. I love them.” Do you remember this?

 

Marlin Miller:

I remember we were sitting at a table and I remember feeling that there were things happening that my wife and I were not privy to. I’ll say it like that. I don’t think we understood exactly what was being said because we visited that banquet to meet Mark.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, so you were totally disconnected?

 

Marlin Miller:

We were completely disconnected from the school.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was a fundraiser for a school, which is awesome. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. We went there because Mark told me he was going to be in Ohio. Yeah. And I said, “Babe, we’re going. ” And we got babysitters and we took off and we walked in as it began. I don’t even think we were there early. We weren’t on time, but we got there and I remember that there was a bit of a kerfuffle, if I can say it that

 

Brian Dahlen:

Way. He was so gracious. More gracious. He managed to kind of steer the ship, but distinguish himself

Very clearly. The speaker of the year before was much more in the … See, phrases are so … I hate using some phrases because they’re so loaded, but I think this previous speaker was a little more Christian nationalist. Take that for what that’s worth. Not saying you can’t be a Christian and be a patriot. Okay. But that was more the bent of it. And Mark is not that person. He’s all in for Jesus. He loves America, but he’s all in for Jesus. Okay. So he had to get up there and very carefully just be like, “Hey, if you’re looking for that, I’m not your guy.” But I do love unsafe people and I love Jesus. And he just kind of turned and then he took over the room. He was spectacular.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh, he was unbelievable. The story he told, the stories he told are just … They’re some of my favorite stories of all time.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, he canceled on me once on a … I did live radio for 10 years and he was scheduled to be on the show. And every time he would come on, we would play that … Is it Waylon Jennings or somebody did Deep in the Heart of Texas, The Stars At Night are Big and Bright? Deep in the Hard Road.

 

Marlin Miller:

I don’t think I know

 

Brian Dahlen:

That song. It’s this cheesy thing. And he would laugh every time because we were just ripping on Texas and he didn’t show up this one time. He texted me, “I’m so sorry. Our baby deer got away.” I couldn’t be there. I was like, “Mark, what? Wait, washing your hair?” That’s the worst excuse I’ve ever heard. It’s

 

Marlin Miller:

A horrible lie.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Come over there. Did your dog get your homework? Would you stop it? And he goes, “No, no. He sent me a picture. They had it, found an abandoned baby deer and nursed it back to health, had a harness on it. ” And what did they … I forget what they called it, but anyway.

 

Marlin Miller:

That guy-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Best excuse I ever heard for a missing radio interview.

 

Marlin Miller:

Final thought on Mark Gregston. I don’t know of many people that are his age that have a healthier motor on the back of their end. He goes and goes and goes. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He’s got more energy than-

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s unbelievable.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Unbelievable.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Check out Parenting Today’s Teens if you haven’t. He’s amazing.

 

Marlin Miller:

Or Plain Values.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Right. Well, right. That goes without saying.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m sorry.

 

Brian Dahlen:

In fact, the best writeup about Mark Gregson you probably find within the pages of Plain Valleys.

 

Marlin Miller:

Could be inside Planet.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Many issues. Get them all actually.

 

Marlin Miller:

Get them all. Yes. Now let’s go back to something that I want to peel back a layer of the proverbial onion on. At breakfast, we were talking about that kindredness. Did you go into radio with the mindset of discipleship instead of … Not instead of evangelism, but was that your focus from the start?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No. I don’t know if I got in for a good reason or not. I got in because I was so annoyed with Christian radio. I liked being behind a microphone, but what I discovered when I got behind the scenes, and this is not a reflection of my friend Mark. Fart. My friend Mark. We’re

Definitely leaving

That in. Yeah, leave it in. My fart, yes. My fart, Mark. My friend Mark was an exception to this rule, but a lot of times what happens on Christian radio is people come from a place of success and righteousness and try to teach you from their successes and try to give you the right answer. And they put a pretty bow on life. It’s like, “Isn’t God awesome? Here’s Chris Tomlin.” And then you play it, God is great. And then the mics turn off and then they turn and talk to each other, the guest, other people in the studio, and they tell you what they really think. And they share … I thought the most compelling things happening on Christian radio were behind the scenes because there were people who were being so rehearsed, dare I say, disingenuous on the air. Pretending to be the ideal Christian because that’s what they thought you’re supposed to be on the air.

 

Marlin Miller:

When their lives are in chambles.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, or when the truth is something else. For example, I know people have different ideas on what is appropriate for Christians to watch or not, but I remember there was one guest in particular who came on and gave this really powerful, very hyper spiritual discussion on prayer. And then behind the scenes was passionately telling me how much they loved … Remember House of Cards on Netflix?

 

Marlin Miller:

I do.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Powerful series, not a Christian series by any stretch of the imagination. One could make an argument for watching something like Breaking Batter House of Cards to see the destructiveness of sin. Right. We’re not going to go down that road, but I was struck by this person who gave the persona on the air of, “I’m the ideal Christian.” But all they wanted to talk about was house of cards. And so I actually started mostly on a Podcast. I started a podcast years ago. It’s no longer around. It was called What Did They Say Now? It was me and my friend Courtney and Barnabas. Barnabas Piper, who is John Pipers. Abraham’s?

 

Marlin Miller:

No. Abraham’s brother.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, yeah. Do you know Abraham Piper?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He’s an atheist. Yeah. And his dad is John Piper.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Barnabas. From

 

Marlin Miller:

Minneapolis.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes. Yes. Barnabas and I, we haven’t talked in years, but he and I were colleagues at Moody. He worked for Moody Publishers at the time. So the three of us did a podcast called What Did They Say Now where the whole premise was, you’re going to eavesdrop on a real conversation among Christians. What

 

Marlin Miller:

Did they say now?

 

Brian Dahlen:

What did they say now? I don’t even think it’s available. I have the archives personally, but I’m not even certain it’s still in existence. We stopped production in 2015.

Okay.

And there were some other iterations of personalities on it, but we were, at the time, there weren’t many Christians doing that. What if we had a really honest conversation about really difficult topics? The messiness of the Christian life. And that’s what we did. It didn’t get a lot of traction. We had some listeners, but that is where the concept of the way I did radio ministry was born, where I would rather talk about really difficult issues from a faith perspective and an effort to help people live out Romans 12: two. Romans 12: two, I’m not going to quote it verbatim, but it’s essentially, let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think is the NLT. Yeah. Let the word God- The

 

Marlin Miller:

Renewing of your

 

Brian Dahlen:

Mind. Renewing of your mind, but I think the NLT translation is much more apropos of how we speak today. Let the word of God change the way you think.

Yeah.

We should always be adapting our way of thinking to what the scripture says, not what our heart wants us to, or what feels right or sounds good. Whether I like it or not, as Luther said, my conscience is captive to the word of God. So my radio ministry has always been built on. I want to challenge you to think differently. And that in and of itself is if I believe a form of discipleship. It doesn’t encompass all of what discipleship is, but challenging people to grow in conforming their thought life and their perspective on life and their ideology towards that of Christ is, I believe, a form of discipleship. And that’s where it was born out of.

 

Marlin Miller:

You obviously know John Eldridge.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes.

 

Marlin Miller:

Do you know of- I

 

Brian Dahlen:

Don’t know personally.

 

Marlin Miller:

I met him,

 

Brian Dahlen:

But-

 

Marlin Miller:

Do you know there’s his sons and the magazine that they created?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No.

 

Marlin Miller:

Seth, would you run upstairs and get our copies of Anne’s sons? They’re above Matt’s desk. Okay. Yep. John and his sons-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Seth, everybody.

 

Marlin Miller:

Seth. That’s right. Seth Yoder. John and his sons, and forgive me, I don’t remember the son’s names. I think there were two or three of them. Years ago, they began a print magazine, digital roots and then moved to print or I’m not sure, but it was called Anne Sons. Really, really well done. Really well done. And they took that tack completely. They talk about the hardest things and very openly, very frankly, in incredibly authentic ways. They didn’t sugarcoat it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

That’s what people need.

 

Marlin Miller:

That is so …

 

Brian Dahlen:

It took us a while to cultivate an audience that understood what we were doing, but once we did, the brokenness people were willing to share and the challenges people faced are really what people need. They don’t need you to help them. I mean, people need you to help them figure out how to pray, of course. Right. But they need to know how to navigate life’s most difficult situations with Christian integrity.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. And that’s what everybody is hungry for.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Of course. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Because not many people are doing it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

That’s correct.

 

Marlin Miller:

And I think that’s … I mean, it would’ve been fascinating to have a mic sitting at the coffee shop today because you and I both, when we were talking about that kindredness, we both lit up because we both know how rare it is

 

Brian Dahlen:

To

 

Marlin Miller:

Actually find someone who’s in that same lane. And it’s so refreshing. I live for those moments when you meet someone and in two seconds, you just know. You just know that

 

Brian Dahlen:

They

 

Marlin Miller:

Get

 

Brian Dahlen:

It. And to me, it’s not … I could sit here and say, “Well, it’s because you and I are so spiritually mature, Marlin.” And no, that’s not it.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s not.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But I think more it’s somebody who has a deep desire to grow in spiritual maturity. And that is reflective in their countenance, their approach to life, their willingness to surrender their own ideology, their own desires, their own tribes, to surrender to what the Lord would have us. That to me is what we’re talking about there.

 

Marlin Miller:

And I’m going to add one thing, real road burn.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Real roadburn.

 

Brian Dahlen:

They’ve been broken. They understand their own brokenness.

 

Marlin Miller:

Man, oh man. I have a friend over in Jersey or Delaware, I’m sorry. And Eric often will say, “Until we realize what Christ saves us from, we really can’t appreciate what he saves us into.”

 

Brian Dahlen:

That’s right.

 

Marlin Miller:

And I think the older that I get, the more I realize how disgustingly sinful I really am. And I say that knowing I am incapable of knowing the far reaching nastiness that is in me.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But that’s the disposition of a believer. But the catch is that far up too many people don’t understand the … That doesn’t create a sense of dread. It doesn’t create a sense of guilt. I had a pastor friend, his name is Doug Seletsky. He’s amazing. And whenever he would preach, whenever he would get to it in his sermons, the gospel, you could see him kind of breathing in the gospel. He took that final turn you need when you talk about the gospel. It’s knowing your own depravity and then he would always close his eyes and it’s like he’s accepting it for himself because he knows he needs it so bad. You turn and go, “And yet Christ died for me. ” And you find the joy and freedom in the idea that I am that depraved and yet Christ died for me, and aren’t I so grateful for that?

You’re not beating yourself up. You’re living in the reality of being forgiven and knowing that you can’t do it on your own. And that’s a spiritual concept that all Christians understand, but to deeply try to live it out-

 

Marlin Miller:

Every day.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And you’ll be forced to encounter pain. And that’s the … My friend Nancy Cain, author of Stages of the Soul, she’s one of my mentors in life. I took her spiritual formation course from the Caritas Center. They’re amazing, Caritas Center. And she says, “Pain is God’s invitation to grow.” And really growth only comes through pain. And then she follows it up with, “God’s a gentleman and he won’t force you to grow in the midst of the pain.”

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow.

 

Brian Dahlen:

God’s invitation. Hold

 

Marlin Miller:

On. So we are going to encounter pain.

 

Brian Dahlen:

You will encounter pain.

 

Marlin Miller:

She said, “He’s a gentleman and will not force you to grow.” So in the middle of the pain, it is still our choice, our free will to grow or not. Pain

 

Brian Dahlen:

Is God’s invitation to grow.

 

Marlin Miller:

That is really, really nuanced there, isn’t it?

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s nuanced and it’s life changing. It’s like-

 

Marlin Miller:

How many people do we know that are in the middle of pain and want nothing to do with growing?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. And they reject God in the midst of the pain.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And there’s others, and this is the bigger challenge in American Christianity, is there’s others in the midst of affluence that are able to either deceive themselves into thinking they’re avoiding pain or to actually avoid pain to the extent that they never live a deep spiritual life. And this is where some evangelicals are uncomfortable with spiritual formation as a concept. It’s become much more acceptable now, but Nancy’s spiritual formation program is unparalleled, and it’s really talking about how do you grow an intimate relationship with Jesus. It’s not an intellectual pursuit, it’s an emotional pursuit. And her and her husband who run this program are psychologists. And so the premise of what they do is that you can’t be spiritually healthy unless you’re emotionally healthy. And I believe that to be very true because a lot of people with a warped sense of who God is, comes from a painful past, painful emotional past they won’t address.

I remember anecdotally, one gal I overheard at one point in the program, we were being invited to spend an hour with the Lord every day in prayer, fellowship with the Lord, maybe even in silence. And she’s like, “Well, that sounds kind of scary.” And turns out that idea of spending time with the Lord is scary is born out of a … Her father figure in her life was a scary person. And that emotional pain translated into a warped sense of who God is. And so half of their spiritual formation is essentially counseling because even Christians in America who grew up in a wealthy environment, you can avoid your pain or you can face it. We all have pain. It may not be poverty, but it’s certainly going to be emotional pain, unaddressed trauma of some sort that is keeping you from growing closer to Christ, and that’ll open up your whole world.

And it’s people who often have experienced pain and accepted God’s invitation that walk on that road to spiritual maturity.

Nancy told a great story too of she had a friend who worked at a … I don’t remember what the kind of business, let’s just say it was a childcare place, a Christian daycare, right? Well, somebody that was on staff there got arrested for some sort of terrible thing, child pornography or something, right? The staff gets together, sits in a table, in a circle, and everybody takes turns saying, “This is so awful. I can’t believe this guy did this. This is so awful. This is disgusting with a terrible person.” They get to the last guy and his only response was there, but for the grace of God, go I. He’s somebody who was like, “That could be me. I’m just that bad.” And that’s that what you’re talking about.

Yeah.

It’s where you’re not shocked by sin anymore because you know how much of a mess you are.

 

Marlin Miller:

Boy, that opens up a can of worms in so many ways. I am amazed at both how everybody and their brother today tosses around Hitler’s name as if it’s nothing and they’re like, “Oh my goodness, oh, he’s like Hitler.” Wait, can we pause for a second and look at what that man actually did? And then can we be intellectually honest enough to say, “You know what? We might call someone that. ” They’re not even close to that. At the exact same time, at the exact same time, the realization that we could all be that. The sinful nature goes that deep in every single one of us. I mean,

 

Brian Dahlen:

C.S.

 

Marlin Miller:

Lewis said, or I think it was Lewis that said, “You cannot slander human nature. It is worse than words can describe.” You cannot pin the tail on Hitler and say, “Oh my word, I could never be that bad.” Oh, yes, you could.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh yeah. No, I mean, this is why I love psychology so much because my approach to the social sciences and hard sciences would be that since God’s the creator of the universe, when you examine science, whether it’s social science or physical science, God will be revealed in the midst of it. And human depravity is constantly revealed in psychology. But one of the classic examples is the Stanford prison experiment. Are you familiar with this? I believe it’s a prison experiment, but it was, you’re no longer allowed to do this anymore, but essentially a famous psychologist an experiment with college students where they put them into a simulation of sorts where they were sorted into two groups, guards and prisoners, and they were playing the role of guards and prisoners in this simulation. And it didn’t take long for the prison guards to start becoming abusive to the prisoners and this degraded to the point they had to stop it because human nature is so wicked that even in a psychological experiment … And the other one would be, there’s another famous one where somebody’s brought in and they’re told that there’s somebody behind another wall that’s going to get an electric shock and they have to give them a quiz.

I’m getting this partially wrong.

 

Marlin Miller:

I think I’ve heard of this one.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And it’s increasingly higher levels of electric shock. And many people, regular people, were giving lethal electric shocks seemingly. They didn’t actually do it, but they were willing to do it just because they were asked to do it and compelled to do it with some pressure. You know what I mean? So like what you’re saying, we all have that capability of wickedness within us.

 

Marlin Miller:

One thing that is a pet peeve of mine, and I think Seth has heard this probably far too often, but I am increasingly annoyed with every Tom, Dick and Harry’s level of certainty about every single thing. Yeah. Everybody is so sure about everything, and it doesn’t seem like anybody has the guts anymore to say, “You know, that’s a good question. I don’t know. “

 

Brian Dahlen:

That’s right.

 

Marlin Miller:

“I don’t know. “

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes.

 

Marlin Miller:

“What do you think? ” And everybody is, bam, that’s the answer and just case clothed. We were talking about COVID and the masks and everybody fell into these two camps in two seconds. Nobody was even having a conversation anymore.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Or willing to listen or …

 

Marlin Miller:

No.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I mean, humility has lost its value in the church and really there’s … I don’t remember the proper theological labels. My colleague, Lauren Cuevas, is better at this than me, but there are the non-negotiables of the Christian faith, and there really aren’t many. The virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, the resurrection, those things are non-negotiable, but everything else we ought to be … In fact, Paul talks about this in detail in one Corinthians, his whole passage on love, it’s one of my pet peeves, love is patient, love is kind. It’s not a wedding passage. It’s his correction for the Corinthian church because they were squabbling over spiritual gifts. He said, “By the way, if you don’t love each other, all that’s meaningless.” Even spiritual gifts were not worth squabbling over.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. I just lost my train of thought.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, because I keep going down the rabbits.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh my goodness. No. I’m hard to wrangle. Sorry. No, it was great. Okay. Final couple questions here. You ready?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yes.

 

Marlin Miller:

Tell us about the grandfather effect. In a really … I mean, I realize that that’s a long road.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I can give you the elevator speech and we can go from there.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes, please.

 

Brian Dahlen:

So the elevator … No. The grandfather effect is a podcast series I created a number of years ago. It’s a limited series, storytelling podcast where I try to figure out why my grandfather, my paternal grandfather disowned my family when I was a teenager. I know it sounds weird you wouldn’t know why you were disowned, but my family didn’t talk a lot about those types of issues. So I had to do some soul searching and some interviews with family to figure out the answer to that question. And Plain Values graciously did a written version of the series a couple of years ago, which I was so blessed by. I felt so honored. I’d never been in a magazine before. So that was pretty fun. And your team did such an incredible job. You’re such a joke. Turning it into … I’d never been in a magazine before, but your team did such a great job turning it into the written word.

People wouldn’t think, but it’s difficult to turn a narrative audio drama into a written form.

 

Marlin Miller:

So I got to tell you really quickly. Seth, was it Isaac that told us about it first? I think it was. It

 

Brian Dahlen:

Was either Isaac or Matt. How did they hear about

 

Marlin Miller:

It? I don’t remember. I think

 

Brian Dahlen:

They just found

 

Marlin Miller:

It. I think they found it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was met with more success than I anticipated.

 

Marlin Miller:

It was so well done and it was … I mean, the way that your little intro talked about the butterfly effect and then translated that directly down into, this is what happened with my grandpa. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

We’re actually going to be rereleased in the series. We retooled it. There was some unreleased narrative and audio that wasn’t included in the version that Moody released that I’m retooling. We’re in the midst of that right now, so it’s real fresh in my mind. But yeah, I was just listening through that opening sequence.

 

Marlin Miller:

It is so good. And I think part of why I loved it so much that I came to you and I said, “Hey, listen, I’d love to put this out in our medium,” which by the way, my thought is just back as Marshall McCluen, by the way, the medium is the message. I’d love to talk about that sometime.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sure. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

But when I listened to it, Brian, I’m telling you, the thing that I love the most is that it didn’t have this fairytale ending. Life doesn’t always come together in a beautiful way and it’s

 

Brian Dahlen:

Real. It doesn’t. Usually it doesn’t. And again, that was intentional on my part because

It was never intended to be a released series. I intended to make a demo to show my colleagues at that radio network that Christians can do storytelling podcasting because at that time, I mean, since then there have been other ones like The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill and such, which is a fantastic series, but nobody was doing storytelling. We do interview podcasts and we do preaching and teaching. And on top of that, Christians do one story arc. Now, I love salvation as much as the next guy, but the only stories we tell are ones where the pinnacle of the story arc is somebody gets saved and usually it’s terrible theology. You and I were chatting about the over breakfast, but I’m bad, life is bad, you go on the story arc, I get saved, life is better.

Right.

And that’s just not how life works. And so I intentionally, I actually made the series one episode at a time, and I intentionally didn’t know how it was going to end. A lot of people will gather all of the audio at once and go back and craft a story.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s what I thought you did. I didn’t know that … Oh my goodness.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I didn’t know that. I told the series of probably six or seven years because I did it alone and it took forever and it was COVID and all that. So I wrote the introduction, I recorded it. And I actually did an interview with Dr. Michael Ridell like that. Maybe I’ll have to re-release or release. I’ve never released it about his disownment story. And then I interviewed my parents and then I created the episode and then I interviewed my uncle and my cousins and then I created the episode and then I interviewed experts. And so I didn’t know it was going to end until I got there.

 

Marlin Miller:

I got to pause you. That takes real guts because you had no idea where this was going to go. I’m sorry. I did not realize that you actually did it in that sequence.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. The idea was to … I produced the first two episodes, which was just like a narrative and then an interview with my parents and it was intended only to be a demo. And I said to my boss at the time, my boss allowed me to make it. I said, “The only way to keep this thing going is if I go to Minnesota and interview some family and I’m not paying for that. If you want me to keep doing this, ” because I lived in Ohio and my young family, so it got put on a shelf for a couple years and then a new boss comes in and I told him about the project. He said, “Well, go for it. We’ll find a way to pay for it. ” And in the end, I ended up investing. It was primarily a personal investment and we did a trade of sorts where … But anyway, long story short, I was able to finish the project over a long series of events, but I ultimately didn’t think anybody would want it because I ended up doing it on my own time.

I’d come in on Saturdays, record it on my own equipment. And at the end of the day, Moody ended up wanting to purchase the rights to the project. That was kind of a stilted version of the story, but yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I didn’t think it would ever get released. I think my parents were a little surprised it got released as well.

 

Marlin Miller:

What has come out of it as far as from the listener side? Have there been some stories of, “That happened to me too.”

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, that was the surprising part. I thought it would just be some voyeuristically my story would be interesting, but everyone I’ve talked to tells me at least a snippet of their own story because what people ended up doing is in our story, they caught glimpses of their own.

Yeah.

Because every family has a story of brokenness and broken relationships of some sort. I didn’t realize how pervasive it was. In my mind, there were fairytale Christian families that don’t have any drama, but that’s theologically silly. So I don’t know why I thought that, but nonetheless, yeah, everyone sees a mirror of themselves in some way in it. I know you and I talked about that.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s so well done.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’m grateful you feel that way.

 

Marlin Miller:

I just love it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’m excited to re-release it to give a little bit more depth to the story. And we’ve always talked about doing more seasons of it, but those kind of … I learned the hard way that those storytelling podcasts, they’re expensive to produce on your own and they take a lot of time.

 

Marlin Miller:

To do it well.

 

Brian Dahlen:

To do it well. To do

 

Marlin Miller:

It well.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I mean, it’s not just the hours of interviews, it’s editing the interviews, it’s storyboarding, it’s writing voiceovers, recording voiceovers, melting it together, getting audio to create the audio underneath, implementing it, mixing it. It just takes forever. Seth is nodding his head. He’s well aware of how much effort that takes. He

 

Marlin Miller:

Knows. Yeah. I don’t,

 

Brian Dahlen:

But

 

Marlin Miller:

He does.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Even something like this that sounds very simple actually takes quite a bit of effort. Yeah. Seth is like, “Amen, brother.”

 

Marlin Miller:

He knows. Takes two seconds. He does. Oh, man.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I can’t thank Plain Values enough for their time and investment in the story. It was a big confidence boost that learning somebody actually heard it and then that it meant enough that you wanted to share the story. And at the end, I won’t ruin the end for everybody. There’s twists and turns that I’ve found. I was hoping there’d be twists and turns because that’s what good stories have.

Yeah.

And we found some along the way in my journey, but at the end, you would hope that it brought about family reconciliation. I got closer to my parents. I was never separated from them in any way. We got closer through the journey, but it didn’t bring about the reconciliation we’d hoped. I assume that if you just talk about your problems, everybody will live happily ever after. It’s just not true. And that’s where we’re going to keep the epilogue in the rerelease of the series. We won’t do a prologue next time. So if you want to go find it, you have to listen to it quickly before it disappears. But people skip prologues and epilogues a lot in books. Don’t skip the epilogue in the series.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. It’s worth it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because this is part of the Christian life. Yeah. You’re not promised a happy ending other than, I don’t know, eternity with the Lord, which is pretty great. It’s pretty critical. But in this life, we’re not promised anything. Salvation ought to be enough.

 

Marlin Miller:

How can we pray for you and your family?

 

Brian Dahlen:

I appreciate you asking that. We’re in a transition. Getting laid off is not something I’m experienced at, especially at 17 years in an industry that’s changing so quickly. So I am still on a journey of figuring out what’s next, and I’m doing lots of different things at the moment. Just continued prayers for the Lord’s guidance in what he wants to do with the next 20 or so years of work life that I have. And I’ve had to come to terms with the idea that I was given a wonderful platform, but God has just as important work to do for a lot of people that involve a quiet life. And I’m ready to live a quiet life if that’s what the Lord wants me to live. Not that I’m some sort of big time dude, but I had a public position of influence for quite a while, and I might not anymore.

I’m okay with that. I just want to be in God’s will. So I’m just … And the transition is a long one. The Lord expects us to be patient and I think I would rather have everything ironed out after a couple of weeks when you get laid off, but here I am probably six months out and it’s … Well, not quite that long, probably five months out. And it’s not totally clear yet. That’s okay. Stressful, but it’s okay.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. I don’t think I have to add anything to that because I was sitting here thinking about texts and friends that have sent short, beautifully, pithy things about, “Oh, those that wait on the Lord,” which is obviously true and good and right, but I think your reality of not having it all figured out right away, which by the way is hard, it’s okay to just simply to embrace it and just say, “This is where we are and it’s okay.”

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, and one little book I keep going back to, it’s old, is called Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. Are you familiar?

 

Marlin Miller:

I am.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Probably one of the most … One of the guys who loved Jesus more than probably anybody else, and he peeled potatoes and mop floors in a monastery. And the

 

Marlin Miller:

Clanging sound of the dishes.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. And the irony of it, of course, is the only reason we know his story is because he made a bishop promise he wouldn’t publish any of the letters he wrote, and then when he died, the bishop published them. But he lived the life of great consequence in God’s eyes, peeling potatoes and washing dishes and mopping floors. And so the person whose job that is has just as much value as a Billy Graham. That’s spiritually true, but on earth we don’t quite believe that. And there’s part of my heart that’s longed for a quiet life for a long time, because in the radio business, if you want to keep working in the business, you move.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’m done moving, unless the Lord demands it of me.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’ve got kids still in school. I don’t want to make kids move anymore. And so we feel called to stay where we are. And so if that means I’m mopping the floors for 20 years, I’m doing it to God’s glory, but it’s a spiritual exercise to … To do that. If I really believe it’s true that the worker in the field, the custodian in the school has just as much value as the radio host and the TV host and the evangelist, I have to be willing to do both.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. I’m just honored that you would come down and just make the time and hang out with us.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Truly my pleasure. Thanks for taking time to care about my story. So

 

Marlin Miller:

Good. So good.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I hope somebody gets something out of it. And I love what you all are doing at Plain Values. I’m glad you’re finally doing a podcast. I’ve been telling you for years you need to be doing this. You all are doing a great work for the kingdom and I’m cheering for you.

 

Marlin Miller:

Thank you. This is great. All good?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Do you want to mention the Anne Sons magazines that I brought down here for no reason whatsoever?

 

Marlin Miller:

Well, we-

 

Brian Dahlen:

There you go.

 

Marlin Miller:

These are … Brian, I mean it. When they talk about the hard things. And it is obviously for men. It is not for children. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I have a whole unconventional talk I do on manhood that sort of connects to John Eldridge that I was not super popular for.

Really?

Yeah. I think he did a good thing back in his time, but I think it’s an archetype of manhood that isn’t necessarily accurate. And I say necessarily.

Yeah.

I could take you down that whole road, but God’s call for men and women isn’t all that different. We have different roles in the church and different functions and we’re very different, but we’re called to love.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. It is. Eldridge, when I think about his books and his work, I typically think about the wound. The father wound.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, interesting. I thought you would be … He’s got the woman that you’re climbing a … For him, a man who’s camping and hunting and punching and climbing.

Yeah. Cowboy

Western aficionado. Yeah. I don’t like camping. I don’t hunt. Yeah. I don’t … So when you’re a guy like me who likes the arts and history …

 

Marlin Miller:

Right. It doesn’t totally fit.

 

Brian Dahlen:

What am I a woman?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah, right. It doesn’t fit.

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, I just don’t fit that archetype.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right. Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Right. What is a woman? It was wild. I did a talk on this and they wanted me to speak to a men’s group on manhood. And so at the time I was still a CRF host. So we got a decent little crowd here on this thing from other churches. And there was a whole thing afterwards where some of the guys complained to me to church leaders or complained about me to church leadership.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

And the essence of what I taught manhood to be, because there is no explicit teaching on manhood in scripture. There’s husbands.

Right.

There’s no like, this is a man. I went down the road of … I wish there was a time when Jesus told a group of men what he wants them to do. Oh wait, there was. The farewell discourse. So the farewell discourse starts in the upper room and leads to the garden. Three times, Jesus said, “A new commandment I have for you. People will know you by your love for one another.” Told a group of men, “I want people to know you by your love for one another.” Guys don’t like that, right? And then I, well, what’s love? Well, Paul described it in great detail. First Corinthians 13. It was not a message to husband and wife. It was a message to believers about how to treat one another. And so men, be patient and kind. And some of these guys were like, “Whoa.” People are telling them be angry and punch people.

And I’m saying peaceful, but love being this self-controlled, gentleness. That’s what real men are.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right. And in popular culture, even in Christian culture, it’s look at me, I can bench 300 or whatever it

 

Brian Dahlen:

Is. Now you can do all that and still be biblical man.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But that doesn’t leave room for the poets and the … I mean, look at David. David was a musician and a poet.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Matthew was a mathematician. He was a tax collector.

 

Marlin Miller:

Do you know who John Lovell is?

 

Brian Dahlen:

I know Jim Lovell was from Apollo 13.

 

Marlin Miller:

No. John, I think his wife’s name is Rebecca, maybe. I’m not sure. Anyway, he’s a YouTuber. I think he was a seal. I’m not sure. But he has something called the Warrior Poet Society. And he is doing both of those things. Now, I have his book, but I’ve not read it. And he tends to take things down a prepper lane very quickly. But I do appreciate the fact that he makes room for thoughtful pros and- There has

 

Brian Dahlen:

To be room for that. Is Lewis not a man?

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s exactly right. Oh, boy. I

 

Brian Dahlen:

Mean,

 

Marlin Miller:

Tolkien and-

 

Brian Dahlen:

But some of these guys, I’m telling you, they were not happy. They

 

Marlin Miller:

Were ticked off.

 

Brian Dahlen:

That group of guys was much more into the, “I want to teach my boys to be men.” And a man is someone who’s outside-

 

Marlin Miller:

All the time. …

 

Brian Dahlen:

And chopping wood and starting fires. And now I like doing some of those things, trust me.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. When it’s an only thing, that’s the only way to be a

 

Brian Dahlen:

Man.That’s a personal preference. It’s great to chop wood and be out west and …

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

That is not the definition of a man, but many men do that.

 

Marlin Miller:

By the way, exactly. Spoken from a man who just killed a moose.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Went to Canada. It was a

Good time. You’ll be eating for like two years? How’d you get all that home? Did you drive?

We drove.

Okay, good.

Yeah. We had a truck or like a pickup and a trailer and stuff.

Was it a refrigerated trailer probably? Or did you have like 18 coolers?

Ice and then there was a freezer in there that … We got two bulls. We went with a party of four and

… Two bulls. How many pounds each?

They had like a little over 300 pounds of processed meat at the end and I had like over 200 pounds. I had a smaller bowl.

Did you keep the rack and everything? Yeah. Oh geez. You got to put one up here.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s pretty cool.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I have friends

Who- Yes, that makes me a man.

Right? No, I have friends who live in Homer Alaska and they get a moose every year and it feeds their family.

Yeah. The moose up in Alaska are a lot bigger than where we were, but it’s still a move. Still. It’s like shooting an oversized horse.

 

Marlin Miller:

I mean, it makes a deer look like-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, what’s the point?

 

Marlin Miller:

A quail. I mean, it’s like, what’s the point?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Right. But yeah. And that’s what I tried to articulate to these guys. I’m not saying that’s not manhood. It is. But that’s not what defines it. Christians tend to have a pendulum swing reaction to things. So culture is blurring the lines of gender. So we’re going to swing and we’re going to create lines of gender that don’t exist.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Let’s be Uber men, which oh wait, I think I’ve heard that too. Uber Menja, Germany, 1940. I’m not

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sure. Right, right, exactly. Which also tends to, by the way, be really destructive to Christian women when we do that. And it ends up pressing down Christian women. And so I’ve happened to surround myself over the years with some very talented Christian women. Guess what? Some of them are smarter than me and that’s okay.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

That’s allowed.

 

Marlin Miller:

If I can say one thing about … I don’t know that I should say Christian comedy, but comedy in general, I don’t understand why it is … It’s automatically funny and I think everybody does it or seemingly everybody seems to do it where they make a joke about how automatically 10 times smarter their wife is than they are. Oh

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Do you know what I’m saying?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, yeah, it became popular right in the late ’80s that-

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s been around forever.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Baron

Stain Bear’s father type of thing.

Yeah. The man is the punchline. Right. Yeah. He’s kind of an idiot. Holmer

 

Marlin Miller:

Simpson. It’s Homer Simpson.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And Homer’s Hilarious.

 

Marlin Miller:

And

 

Brian Dahlen:

I love Doug Heffernan.

 

Marlin Miller:

Brilliant. Unbelievably.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Those shows are hilarious. Brilliant. But that’s been destructive in society.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Absolutely. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

So

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s rare to find people who totally … But again, this is why the way of Christ is truly different than all of those things. And we actually lose something if we create a reactionary archetype. I try to describe that to these guys and they just could not … Some could not get it. Now, thankfully, church leadership got it. They’re right there with me. Yeah.

Like

One of the guys said, this is an older guy, said years ago he read John Eldridge’s book and he went up and all excited to tell his wife about it and about how men need someone to rescue, I think is one of his things. And she goes, “Well, I’m glad you’re enjoying the book, but I don’t need you to rescue me.

 

Marlin Miller:

” So, okay. So how would a John and a Stacey Eldridge respond to that? Well,

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s a good thing we have a podcast open for them.

 

Marlin Miller:

How about in

 

Brian Dahlen:

Here? Let’s talk to

 

Marlin Miller:

Them. So can I tell you, I bought Stacy’s book for my wife and she hated it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I don’t know much about her book. Now I’ve met John and he was a wonderful guy. Years ago, he did an interview with my former boss and I like hit record on the interview. I was sitting where you’re sitting. Really nice guy, but I’m assuming it plays off of his theology as well.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah, it totally does. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And when you’re married to a brilliant, strong woman, that archetype doesn’t fit. And I’ve surrounded myself by a lot of … My wife is very talented and in some ways is smarter than me and there’s nothing unbiblical about that.

 

Marlin Miller:

And it’s not said for comedic, for anything. It’s just reality. Lisa is much more detailed, much more … She’s- That’s why- She assumed commode in her college class. It’s like-

 

Brian Dahlen:

Martha, what do I do? I don’t know what to buy with groceries today.

Never fear, honey.

I’m here. I will rescue you. We will do sirloin, not New York strip.

 

Marlin Miller:

But let me just keep bragging on her a little bit. Do you have any idea how many women would take on what she has taken on?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, very few.

 

Marlin Miller:

Unbelievably things. The strength. She is one tough lady, and she is. And it’s a joy to link arms with someone like that. It’s a joy.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I had lunch once with a guy at … You ever been to the marble room in Cleveland? It’s one of those really ritzy, fancy …

 

Marlin Miller:

No.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’ve only been once because this guy took me. And it’s one of those where the salads cost more than entrees that I buy at expensive restaurants. So you could tell I was all freaked out. And he’s like, “Well, Brian, when I’m here, I normally order a salad and an entree.”

 

Marlin Miller:

Okay. Okay.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But his wife, he’s a very successful businessman.

 

Marlin Miller:

Apparently.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And very wealthy. But if you meet his wife, she might be smarter and she’s certainly a stronger personality. And he quietly was talking to me about manhood in that sense and he said, “Brian, the way he approaches the biblical view of it would be it’s like he’s the CEO kind of spiritually, but he hired good management and he’s there for a tie breaker, but he’s like … ” So the biblical theory being you got two people, you need a tie breaker, but at the end of the day, it’s a partnership.

 

Marlin Miller:

That is a beautiful analogy.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I don’t even necessarily like them hired a good manager a bit part of it because when you look at Ephesians five, I used to talk to Michael and Eva Rydelnik about this. You’ve been with Michael. He’s the Bible Q&A guy at Moody. Great voice. And he loves Eva. If you meet Eva, Eva will be your favorite. Really? He defers to Eva in many things. She knows the scriptures better than he does.

 

Marlin Miller:

Oh my goodness.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He actually, you won’t know this, but she sits in the room with him when he does his show. And if you listen carefully, every once in a while, she’ll give him an answer. And my goal whenever he was on once a week was to get her voice on the air.

 

Marlin Miller:

You

 

Brian Dahlen:

Would shoot for that. Go to laugh or say something. And-

 

Marlin Miller:

Eva, can you hear me?

 

Brian Dahlen:

And when you talk to them about it, because again, she teaches some courses at Moody, they’re complimentarian, but in a very moderate sense in that those are church roles to find. But Eva could be a teacher at Moody. You follow me? So she would tell you that I have no problem with submission if he’s doing his part in Ephesians five, because that’s way harder. The submit part in Ephesians five is very short for women. It starts with submit to one another.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yep.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And the list for men, way higher expectations.

 

Marlin Miller:

Well-

 

Brian Dahlen:

You lay your life down for your wife.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yep. And that’s the thing that I think we as American Christians have totally forgotten that, hey, guess what? God holds the man responsible for a marriage, for a family, for the decisions that are made. And when we abdicate that, he’s not looking to her saying, “Why did you guys do that? ” He looks to us and he holds us responsible for that.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And in a Christ-centered marriage, you’ll maybe once or twice in your entire relationship encounter a moment where you have to exercise spiritual authority.

 

Marlin Miller:

Because you’re one.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Your work and you value your wife’s opinion.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sometimes more than your own.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. I-

 

Brian Dahlen:

But no guys want to hear a garbage like that. They don’t want to hear that. Top down. I have a business partnership with Lauren. Her and I work really well together and we have complimentary gifts, but there’s no doubt that she’s smarter than me.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And in a business context, having a woman-

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s wonderful. …

 

Brian Dahlen:

Be an authority in a business. I don’t care. Good. She’s the good leader. Fine. I don’t care.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

She would roll her eyes if I said she’s smarter than me, but in many ways she is. And that’s okay. She’s better with numbers.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

There were various good women leaders in scripture.

Yeah.

Like better than the men who were there.

Oh

 

Marlin Miller:

My.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And I would guess only because we’re here in Amish country and you had the experience with it, I would imagine Amish women have more influence than people realize.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. I think you could say that. The projected image is not that.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. It’s one of subservients

 

Marlin Miller:

And submissiveness. It’s very much not that. They don’t get to say much at all. That’s what they would lead us to believe. But you pull back that curtain. Oh yeah. I have some ants. Who are some tough little birds. I bet they are. Let me tell you. They are. And I wouldn’t be surprised even in some

 

Brian Dahlen:

Of those marriages if it’s almost exactly what we’re describing.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We could talk for a while on that.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I bet.

 

Marlin Miller:

Hence, you got to come back.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, yeah. I

 

Marlin Miller:

Mean, that’s a foregone conclusion right there, brother.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I would love to. And you got to let me know when you release this so we can do some … Just give me one second here, my wife is … Oh, okay. I’m good. Why don’t you release it so we can do some sharing on our socials.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’d be great.

 

Brian Dahlen:

How far out are you in your scheduling?

Well, if we keep it in line with what we have, I guess it’ll be a 2026

Release. Great.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a couple months.

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, I get it. That’s how we do it.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. Our main editor gal is in … Is she in Dakota somewhere? I think so. I think she’s in South Dakota. Oh, cool. Yeah. She works near Troy, I believe. And dog gone. Brian, she is good. She’s good.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s an art.

 

Marlin Miller:

She’s fast. Yeah. And it’s not … Now, which by the way, one of the things that I would love to jump into with you is AI at some point. We were

 

Brian Dahlen:

Talking about human depravity. I thought about AI. The humans in those experiments, they chose to allow other humans to cause suffering to other humans. And AI is doing the exact same things under simulations recently. And it’s like, well, surprise, surprise. The Apple doesn’t fall far from

It. Have you seen iRobot?

Yes.

He hadn’t seen it yet.

 

Marlin Miller:

I haven’t seen it yet.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It is the pinnacle. And it’s so much so old. Yeah. But it really plays out the long-term consequence of what could happen without the right guardrails.

 

Marlin Miller:

Wow.

 

Brian Dahlen:

There’s actually a lot of power in AI. We use it a lot.

 

Marlin Miller:

I know.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And work.

 

Marlin Miller:

I know.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’m not asking it spiritual questions.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right. And so obviously there is a balance there. And I realize that it’s a beautifully helpful thing.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s a rough draft generator in business marketing.

 

Marlin Miller:

Exactly. Legal. Oh my goodness. It does things unbelievably well and very quickly, which is great. I just simply struggle to use it at all. And that’s probably a bit of a Ludite approach to, I’m going to just bury my head in the sand. I realize that I’m doing that because I also know that it’s here to stay and we are barreling down this track, be good or bad. Do you remember, of course you do. Do you remember the best line in Jurassic Park, the very first one?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, I’ll remember it when I hear it.

 

Marlin Miller:

You were so busy figuring out if you could, that you never ask if you should. And I butchered it.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It was Jeff Goldblum. It was Jeff

 

Marlin Miller:

Goldblum.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, it’s a great line.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s a great line. It’s the best line in the movie. And I think that’s where we are. And I think now it has become this threat of World War III deterrent to who can get to this certain place of synchrony with AI the quickest. Well, wait a second. What are we doing? What are we doing?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. I tend more on the line of technology is neutral, people are evil. And so it’s what we do with it that is either good or evil. I understand the caution and there’s a lot of potential evil and potential concern. I think it’s destructive in education. It’s going to cause us to think less. There’s all those kinds of things. Right.

 

Marlin Miller:

I totally realize that it is a blessing in many, many ways. I get it. I just don’t know that I’m there to use it yet.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, and you know- I

 

Marlin Miller:

Don’t

 

Brian Dahlen:

Know. To each their own. You got to decide what’s going to work best for you. But my friend Lauren was irritated because she kept having to clean up people’s messes in the kitchen. And so she sent an email to all the staff, but first she went into ChatGPT and she said, “Write me an email in the style of a Pauline epistle that tells people and I want people to, in kitchen at A, you got to put your dishes away.” And because she wanted them to read it. No one’s going to read a boring email. So let me see if I can find this. Brian, this

 

Marlin Miller:

Is so great. This is so fun.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Okay.

 

Marlin Miller:

So in apalling verse-

 

Brian Dahlen:

She said, “Write an email to my colleagues for me in the style of a Pauline Epistle about keeping the kitchen clean. I want to include these things.”

Okay.

“Dearly beloved colleagues, grace and peace to you from the kitchenette of building A. I write to you regarding the order that has now been restored to our common kitchen. By much labor and the wiping away of crumbs, it has been set in better array. In the coming days, labels shall be affixed so that all may know where each vessel and provision rightly belongs.”

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s awesome. That is beautiful.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Isn’t that great grace and peace to you from the kitchen or building A?

 

Marlin Miller:

100%. Oh my goodness.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Apple error crash log comes up. I’ll sometimes sit down and write a report, a crash log report in old English and send it to them.

You can make ChatGPT do it for you and it does a really good job.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m really excited in a funky, messed up way to see what our world is like in five years. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. I mean, there are so many things that are just utterly screwed up from the tranny, the transgender movement to World War III to

 

Brian Dahlen:

All

 

Marlin Miller:

Of those things. I just find it fascinating. We are living in some incredibly interesting times.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And yet there’s like America is kind of on the tail end of self-correcting. Europe in many ways has self-corrected some of those extreme liberal policies. I mean, their abortion laws are more conservative than ours.

 

Marlin Miller:

Are they really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah. And here’s the one people don’t want to hear about. When you look at restrictions on abortion in Europe, they’re very extreme. It’s very difficult to get an abortion in Europe. And the reason for that is because their social services for pregnant women are so robust.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Americans don’t want to hear this, but again, they have very high taxes there. But you have to have a really compelling reason in Europe to abort your baby because why wouldn’t you have this baby? We have all these services for you. We’re going to give you all these months off. We’re going to give you money. We’re going to give you support. Have this baby.

 

Marlin Miller:

Do they have a solid foster care system and adoptive families?

 

Brian Dahlen:

They don’t know about that, but they have such great social services and social welfare programs.

 

Marlin Miller:

But they’re taxed to death.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Right.

 

Marlin Miller:

They’re

 

Brian Dahlen:

More restrictive. They are taxed to death, but this is like part of the … No, I’m not a socialist, but we get so stuck in our minds in a capitalistic approach to life that totally free market has to be the way it is. Well, we don’t know how many compromises we already make on some of this, but at the end of the day, what’s the difference between saving babies by compelling somebody to not have an abortion versus making it undesirable to have one?

 

Marlin Miller:

The end result is still … A life

 

Brian Dahlen:

Saved.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s exactly right. I was going to say an alive baby.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Perhaps two lives saved.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But it’s unconventional in our country to say, let’s lavish pregnant women with so much support that would be unthinkable that they wouldn’t have a baby because we don’t want to spend the money.

 

Marlin Miller:

Well, and-

 

Brian Dahlen:

And we don’t want to raise our taxes.

 

Marlin Miller:

And wouldn’t you, by necessity, incentivize that? And for America, for the conservative right, they don’t ever want to incentivize what they deem irresponsible.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Right.

 

Marlin Miller:

Which I understand, obviously.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And that’s why there’s a high percentage of abortions within the Christian church because people are too scared and ashamed to tell anybody that they’re pregnant.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Because we haven’t created a culture in which you can sin and still be loved.

Yeah.

I was listening to a new … Malcolm Gladwell has a new series or a new season out of revisionist history.

 

Marlin Miller:

Gladwell just intrigues the snot out of me.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And he’s such a … Have you read David and Goliath?

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I listened to the audiobook of it. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. So good. We have almost every one of Gladwell’s books.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’m in the middle of … Oh, my word. I’m blanking. It’s on my shelf right now. I’m in the middle of … Oh, for crying out loud. I’m sorry.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Tipping point, blank.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. It’s Tipping Point Revisited

 

Brian Dahlen:

Or- Tipping. Yeah. I’ve been an audio book pick. No. It’s his new release of The Tipping Point.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But revisited is not the right word.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Whatever it is. Yeah. But it’s new stories.

 

Marlin Miller:

It’s the new one. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yeah, where he does big pharma stuff and …

 

Marlin Miller:

Not regret. Anyway, doesn’t matter.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I think he’s … He’s rediscovered his faith.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s my question. He was raised in a Mennonite-ish community, right?

 

Brian Dahlen:

Canada, right?

 

Marlin Miller:

Canada. I believe it sure seems like … And by the way, can I just ask? I’m going to bring up Rogan.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Sure.

 

Marlin Miller:

I

 

Brian Dahlen:

Think- Rogan, if you’re listening …

 

Marlin Miller:

I think Rogan is this close to accepting Christ.

 

Brian Dahlen:

You think so?

 

Marlin Miller:

I do. He’s genuinely … I think he’s interested and I think he’s actually curious.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It wouldn’t surprise me. Did you hear Gladwell’s episode where he just eviscerated his … Because Rogan interviewed RFK Jr. And did some fairly irresponsible interviewing. He’s not a journalist, so no surprise. But Malcolm did a whole take down of this.

 

Marlin Miller:

Really?

 

Brian Dahlen:

In revisionist history. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

I’ve not seen either.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I’m a rabid fan of revisionist history and Malcolm. There’s no better storyteller.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’d be great if Rogan got pride in the kingdom. It’s just tough for guys in that position that have a platform right away. It’s often not good.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. That’s a little bit like … What’s the British guy that got saved? Oh, long hair, big hair, big voice personality.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Oh, Russell brand.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Russell brand.

 

Brian Dahlen:

We give those guys a platform so fast and they’re not ready for it.

Well, he already had one, didn’t

 

Marlin Miller:

He? Yeah, he did. He did.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And it got weird and …

 

Marlin Miller:

And they’re baby Christians and …

 

Brian Dahlen:

So much for pride in a situation like that for

 

Marlin Miller:

Them. It is, but I think … And obviously there’s no judgment here at all because I wouldn’t know how I would handle that either. But it seems like they’re tossed into … Because they’re already there, they’re tossed into this thing of being a voice for the church.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And they’re simply unprepared for

 

Marlin Miller:

Them. When they’re not prepared. Theologically, they are not prepared. And Sean Ryan, Sean Ryan has a huge audience. He was a Navy SEAL, then he was a CIA contractor, searched out the most dangerous places on the planet to go live because he was addicted to the highs of the rush and ends up getting saved, starts a podcast, and still refers to himself as a baby Christian. And I think that’s really wise. I think that’s really wise. He’s still got a lot of rough edges, and he’s not Claiming, and I’m not putting Sean on a pedestal here saying he’s doing it well.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s the church that platforms people, they usually don’t ask for it. But a guy like Rogan already has such a platform.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. It’s fascinating.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s funny. Do you listen to his show? I don’t know many people that actually listen. Rarely.

Wes Huff interviewed. That

 

Marlin Miller:

Was interesting. I’ve heard a couple- Nathan Athel?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No.

 

Marlin Miller:

Nathan Abfel did a documentary called The Religion Business. He was on Sean Ryan. I don’t think he was on Rogan, but Chad Wright has been on Rogan and that was one of … Chad Wright was a seal solidly Christian, like solidly theologically sound. At least-

 

Brian Dahlen:

He got blasted by the other side for preaching Calvinistic theology.

 

Marlin Miller:

But he preached the gospel in a beautifully humble way.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Very bold and humble about

 

Marlin Miller:

It.

 

Brian Dahlen:

To Joe Rogan?

 

Marlin Miller:

To Joe Rogan. He

 

Brian Dahlen:

Open-minded God.

 

Marlin Miller:

That’s exactly what I was going to say. The beauty about Joe is that he will let you speak. He will typically, he will let you say your peace.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Well, and that’s part of-

 

Marlin Miller:

And I love that.

 

Brian Dahlen:

I mean, three hour episodes or whatever, but that’s how he gets people comfortable. And the way Malcolm describes it is they really start to get interesting about an hour and a half to two hours in.

Yeah.

Because he wears you down.

Yeah.

But it amazes me that the guy who hosted Fear Factor has the most listened to.

 

Marlin Miller:

I know. I know.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But one of the reasons he’s so successful is because he was one of the first.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Yep. Not because he’s the best.

 

Marlin Miller:

Now, ironically, wasn’t Rogan and Jimmy Kimmel partners for a long time on a show?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No, that was Adam Corolla.

 

Marlin Miller:

That was Adam Corolla.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Who also is very successful.

 

Marlin Miller:

Corolla is fascinating.

 

Brian Dahlen:

He left radio and he’s very successful in podcasting. Podcasting. Very few people make a living in podcasting.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

It’s very difficult to do so.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

Very few people do it. And I think a lot of people have the illusion that you can. You find the equipment

 

Marlin Miller:

And start and … Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And building a decent sized audience is very difficult.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And it costs a lot, especially when the market’s so flooded right now.

 

Marlin Miller:

Right.

 

Brian Dahlen:

But in the case of Plain Values where you already have an audience, that’s where you can find some obvious traction. We had that with CRF. Lauren and I have that now with our previous employment there. When you have a built-in audience, it’s easier. If you don’t, it’s like what’s … I almost would just tell people don’t.

 

Marlin Miller:

What’s the point?

 

Brian Dahlen:

No one’s going to hear it except your mom.

 

Marlin Miller:

I know.

 

Brian Dahlen:

And she’s heard plenty from you. Yeah.

 

Marlin Miller:

Yeah. Oh, goodness. That is too good. Thank you. This is great. We’ve been publishing Plain Values for almost 13 years now. And about a year ago, the team and I decided to put together a compendium, a best of, if you will, of our favorite stories, the most impactful stories of all those years. And invited

Is what we built out of those conversations. It is 194 and four pages, and it is absolutely a thing of beauty. We do a monthly gathering here where we just simply open our doors. It’s called Porch Time. And the story of how Porchtime came to be and how our family was invited into that and how we are inviting you and every Tom, Dick, and Harry, anybody who wants to come can come and hang out at Porch Time here at the office in Weinsburg. So it was such a natural fit to use the home of the founder of Porch Time and to call it invited. You can find it on plainvalues.com on the shop page, and you can now consider yourself invited.

In his book, Rembrandt is in the wind, Russ Ramsey says that the Bible is the story of the God of the universe, telling his people to care for the sojourner, the poor, the orphan, and the widow. And it’s the story of his people struggling to find the humility to carry out that holy calling. Guys, that is what Plain Values is all about. If you got anything out of this podcast, you will probably love Plain Values in print. You can go to plainvalues.com to learn more and check it out. Please like, subscribe and leave us a review. Guys, love y’all. Thanks so much.